Mike Sheehan - The Ferrari Curmudgeon

Well, the horsie in the grill and the FERRARI script on the trunk have to be worth something.

 

"Virtually impossible to get my 330 GTC to pass" suggests that your 330 GTC wasn't operating to factory spec, not that it was somehow outlawed.

Can you cite examples of when some type/age of car that was once legal was made illegal to register/drive? Not being rhetorical -- those laws would probably be voided as being ex post facto or potentially depriving an owner of the use of his/her property.

In any event I don't see a tightening of laws related to old cars. More of a loosening.

I think the real issue is likely to be the eventual demise of gasoline as the primary fuel for vehicles. We will likely have to pay a lot for it, and it may not be available at every corner. Those kinds of changes are probably going to make our cars more of a niche item.

I don't think the EPA or CARB are all that focused on how to get 1960s Ferraris off the road.

 

Well said. 15 years my youngest will be out of the house, and a 308 will be returning to my driveway(if I can afford it).

 

Who knows???

I need to liquidate one, Amanda wants a Saturn Sky.

So come by, if you need one!

As you point out nostalgia is generational, and the generation for the 308GTB isn't going to live forever. We are passing almost as fast as the cars themselves.

 

So when you put the three together, rarity, coolness, and money, a Dino ends up being worth 7 to 10 times more than a 308, and it always will.



That is why I predict 308s will eventually become $50,000 cars, but no more. Even allowing for 500 a year falling into a black hole, there will still be plenty around for the few who will want to buy them in 10 years.

Your thoughts

My thoughts are,I don't agree with anything you stated.Simple as that.

 

Being new to this forum, I am amazed at the thought and scope of comments about ferraris in general and the Sheehan comments do not dissapoint. Perhaps a new reader can provide a different perspective.

My father owned a 1967 ghibli. The car was beautiful but you needed to be a weight lifter to steer in slow traffic, the gearbox crunched in first and was impossible to shift into second until the car warmed up, and leaking oil burned under the car while driving necessitating open window driving. There were frequent calls to my mom requesting pick up from all areas of Los Angeles due to frequent mechanical failures. Finding competent mechanics over the years was tough. Repair costs yearly were ridiculous. The first point, older exotic cars drive poorly and require alot of TLC even in the best of circumstances. They are mostly for show and appeal to a different animal than the guy who wants to drive his ferrari everyday. The everyday driver wants a different ferrari and has a different price point. Sheehan does more than point this out, he treats those two classes of buyers and their choice of ferrari models differently.

I believe my second point concerning car value is best made by comparing cars to paintings. While in New York for a visit last December, my wife insisted we go to the Guggenheim to look at a Kandinskii exhibit. Paintings worth millions that looked to me like they could have been painted by first graders. Needless to say I missed something in the paintings. Who would have thought they would be worth soooooo much (money). When I was ten years old, I would walk by the Ferrari store on Oakhurst and Wilshire in Beverly Hills that was a block from my grandmother's apartment. I remember falling in love with a Daytona convertable for sale there. The price retail was $30000.00. I remember my father telling me the cost was ridiculous and the car was a "waste of money". Who could or would have predicted the future concerning the car or the art. Buy a 308 because you love the car. Let the experts like Sheehan try to make a living brokering f cars.

True, you can buy a corvette or turbo porshe and go faster for less. True from a strictly monetary standpoint there are cars that make more sense economically. But I have owned and driven vettes, porshes, two seater mercedes etc. Point number three, there ain't nothin like driving an f car. If someday the car is worth more than I paid for it originally, what a bonus.

 

Stephen, your name sounds familiar; have you displayed a Ferrari at any Concours in California in recent years?

Sheehan does more than that; he panders to buyers and sellers respectively. If you're sellng a 550, you'll want to pay close attention to any article he writes on the worthlessness of 550s. If you're in the market for a 550, you'll want to pay close attention to any article he writes on why a premium should be paid (to a trusted, seasoned broker) to secure the car that's right for you. The buy and sell articles for vintage Ferraris are different, but the same basic premise is there. Called into question is the veracity of these articles when the author is also the peddler.

This is why people read rags like Motor Trend and Car & Driver; because they'd be heavy on chromosomes to trust an "unbiased" LeBaron article written by Lee Iacocca.

 

I think we need to discern between the US and European markets. Currently a good 308 in Europe is already close to 50,000USD. Also US versions (of which there are quite a lot imported here over the years) are worth much less in Europe than a proper European version (no offence).

I also think it's not right to say that all 308s are regarded the same when talking about values. when breaking them up in their different versions the rarity of each type becomes more apparent. I already noticed that the local dealers look at my early steel 308 with a keen eye and have asked to contact them if I ever decide to sell. It also took me quite some time to find a proper one (and got lucky).
To me these are indications that the market is changing upwards. How high? I don't know. If and when the change gains momentum, to me there's no reason why 308s shouldn't shoot by the 100,00USD mark and beyond. But I could be wrong

 

A good vetroresina is $100k (asking price) in mainland Europe, and has been for quite some time.


Onno

 

asking and selling are two different things, but you confirm my point

 

Fiberglas 308s have always yielded higher asking and selling prices than other 308s. Can anyone confirm any recent Fiberglas 308 sale prices?

 

Art, I understand you only offered that as an opinion, but technically I think it's incorrect.

The recent Ralph Lauren show in Paris is an example of where hundreds of paying customers paid to simply look at the cars, cars they have never, and will never have the experience of driving.

I know the common refrain here is if you don't drive it, then you're less of an owner, but there is value gained by simply looking at pretty things.

-F

 

There's nothing at all wrong with showing a car; hell, show it at every gathering you can attend! But if all one does is show, and never drive, well then it's a waste.

 

The Topic was discussed in the 308/328 section about three weeks ago in a thread called "anybody wants a real collector's Vetroresina?" that I initiated. (not willing to be pedantic, Vetroresina is the italian word for "Glassfiber" and one of the name used to designate those cars in Europe).
I have posted some examples of cars sold/unsold/for sale in France in the aforementionned thread. Price ASKED may vary from about 60 to 65.000 euros for a good, clean car with a well documented history and about 70 / 75.000 kms; to about 80.000 euros for an exceptionnal car, with lower kilometrage (= mileage, but in kilometers...) and impeccable service.
But the price at which they actually SELL is another matter; usually, for sports cars, you could expect a discount of about 7 to 8 % (??). However, in that thread there is a link to a clean one (silver on black boxer scheme, impeccable history, well maintained, 84.000 kms) that was for sale in 2010 at a reputable auction in Le Mans, and the reserve price of 45.000 euros was not met, so the car was not sold. With these examples, go figure...

I think that the number of cars offered on the market is actually too small to have a firm trend. If you consider that the french market was, during the seventies, receiving about 8% of Ferrari's production, that would make about 60/65 Vetroresinas delivered in France. How many are left today, and how many are traded? Probably not much...

 

Exactly. Ownership includes enjoying a car on all counts -- driving, aesthetic appreciation, research, preservation, etc.

I think RL has commented that he could have collected paintings to satisfy his appetite for art, but instead collected cars because they are the foremost industrial art form of the last century.

Once legislated and practical considerations (cup holders, sat nav, pedestrian safety, air bags, etc.) come into play you no longer have pure art. You can argue that you have "better" cars -- faster, more efficient, cleaner, safer -- but the art aspect has suffered, and we will never again have an era like, for example, the 1950s-'60s. There is more or less a black line in 1974 when design was subordinated to other considerations.

While I think the 360s, Mondials, 550s, etc., are very desirable cars, they don't have the significance of the classics. I believe that is where Sheehan is coming from, in his own curmudgeonly way.

 

Last one I saw here in the U.S. I offered $36.5K, he wanted $38K.

He kept the car.

They rarely make the expected "ask".....

Did you note the VIN of the totally trashed, desert frozen carcass of the Mustang Ranch car? It sold under mysterious circumstances, and disappeared (for total restoration, I can only assume.)

There was also the one at the "vette Shop that had lost it's engine lid.
That Shop Owner had two other 1976 'glass 308GTBs...that one made three.
he came in briefly to chat with us.

Welcome Stephen, and great, spot on comment.

Drive what you like.

Invest in what makes you money.

That's most likely two different purchase.

 

I must say that I tend to agree with these conclusions; I think it would be interesting to know why Jon draws the line in 1974, but perhaps it would bring us too far.

On the other hand, the funny thing here is that my office is exactly at 15 mn by foot from the RL cars expo, and even if I do like cars a lot, I don't think I would go to visit this expo.

I understand perfectly well that you can consider a car as an art object, but those seem "over-restored" to me (is this expression correct?). Art objects, yes, but to me, being so perfect, they lack soul. I would love to hear one of their engines...

I still think that cars are made to be pretty to the eye, but also, first and foremost, to be driven. And to be seen in movement. Let me try to put it this way: I do like the Dino 246 a lot. About two month ago, on a rainy day, I saw one, in the parisian morning traffic, purely by chance. Seing the little yellow Dino "in the flesh", just being driven, among other standard cars was exactly like seing and UFO and made me happy for the rest of the week.
Even beautiful, any car needs to be driven.

 

THAT is exactly the effect a 308GTB has in most parts of Texas.

In the larger cities of course they comingle with the more common 328s and might not cause much notice.

But once you are back among 'normal ' cars, they definately are noticed as "something special"..

 

In the US, our initial emissions legislation passed in 1965, but if I recall it was 1974 or so when the federal government mandated bumpers that would withstand a 5 mph impact with no damage. That put an end to chrome bumpers, and required changes such as the transition from the long hood Porsche 911 to the short hood version, etc.

 

Could well be, yep we got 5MPH bumpers (against a fixed crash repair cost, IIRC).

The catalytic exhaust began in 1976 for US manufacturers, with Ferrari exempted (low volume production?) until 1978.

I can see the line.

1974 was the last good TransAm too.......SD455 RA3.

 

Wonder how the 1974 Dinos kept their small bumpers?

 

It's obvious to me that Ferrari was slipping by several features, like the headlight covers in the trunk.

They could have put HUGE rubber blocks on them to pass as "shipping protection" then had the dealers install the real units in make ready.

I think it was a "Small manufacturer" exemption......

 

1973 is the date used by SCM and seems to be catching on but it really depends on the car. An E-type is a good example of that. The SII cars were already making changes and it altered the appearance of the cars. Engines were changing before the v12 came out. The Dino and early 308 are much more alike than not in how they feel, era etc.... Had the 308 gtb been replaced say by the 348 in 1980, I think the values would be much different. The longevity of production (and by that I mean that in most views the 308/328 would be lumped together) has an impact I think in how long the cars would sit at the bottom of the depreciation curve.