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Mileage, Modifications, Accidents, Value

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Napolis, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. sumbaco

    sumbaco Karting

    Jun 21, 2008
    192
    #26 sumbaco, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
    I'm not sure I have anything of value to add, but here's my ramble:


    I think a road-car and race-car express their value in different ways because they are valued for different reasons.

    A road car is valued for it's ability to perform, as it was designed, consistently over time; therefore, a lack of flaws, or a perfect car, is desirable because it implies that the item will work longer and better; also, the car can be enjoyed immediately and without waiting.

    Because mileage has a more immediate and clear effect on parts than time does, it gains priority in most peoples minds. If parts aren't given much opportunity to be rubbed, turned, scratched or soiled, then they must be better off. That heuristic is fed by the idea that there is a bigger market for a car that promises immediate, complete and durable functionality.

    Some race-cars, especially winning ones, are appreciated because they were machines that were 'the best' at a moment in time. No other car in the world was better. The parts that were broken or modified were a part of that car's story and adventure on the way to it being the best; they were designed, touched, and modified by the inspirational group of people whose achievement the car embodies.

    Other racecars are valued because they promise a unique driving experience. Being a racecar, they were a means to an end: winning for money, pride, prestige, or girls; so to the first owners, they were always worth less as a new car than used car. After the cars earned the money and girls, collector's had to choose from a bunch of cars that were used up or broken, so mileage was no longer a good heuristic for determining whether a car was healthy.
     
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  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJBJcTKywso[/ame]
     
  4. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
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    Dec 4, 2004
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    Jacques
    I look at it like this, there are two sorts of people, those that enjoy the cars to drive and those that enjoy looking at them both as an on paper investment and for their beauty. Neither is wrong.

    Which you prefer is mainly down to choice but me, I wouldnt mind a "high" milleage car provided it has been looked after. When talking race cars, does 0846's history make it less desireable, not a chance, its still one of the most stunning sports cars ever made. In many way the history, the accidents, the modifications of the older cars are what make them so special today. Look at the vintage section, how great it is to trace a car, read about its competition life, the upgrades, the accidents.

    For me there is much less interest in reading about a 150 mile Enzo, that car hasnt really "lived", it hasnt been out to awe and captivate people and in some respects thats a shame.
     
  5. Jota 5084

    Jota 5084 Formula 3

    May 18, 2006
    1,912
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    Hmm, reminds me also of the ex. owner, of the Shah of Iran Miura SV.

    Restore the car to mint , drive the heck out of it, and then restore it mint again ;)
     
  6. poppy84

    poppy84 Formula Junior

    Oct 19, 2005
    647
    Italy & Paris
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    Andrea
    #30 poppy84, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
    Many people preferred to keep their F40 in the garage or in the living room because it’s difficult to drive, very expensive and as every pre Montezemolo Ferraris unreliable.

    I don’t think so: my father bought a new F40 on 1990. I still remember the day we've picked up her and my Father did nearly 50 laps on Fiorano track with Benuzzi and other friends.

    In 1992 he entered the new Italian Supercar Gt Championship (which is the starting point of all modern GT class championships and which is also the beginning of the Ferrari Challenge), with his street F40 just upgraded with fire extinguisher and slick tires. In 1993 he upgraded the car with Michelotto GTN specifications and he won 3 races with many podiums until 1994.

    His car was almost a street car, with serie oro brakes, koni suspensions and some minor stuff: in three years and nearly 40 races he never crashed it and he never changed the gearbox or the engine. Maybe my father was lucky in his time but I think if you buy a supercar you have to enjoy it in a circuit or driving her as soon as possible.

    My father sold it in 1999 as a street used car. But now, if I will buy an F40, i will preferes our ex racing car instead of the low mileage finest car on the market.
     
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  8. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    The problem is that as the car's she's a race version of, Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina, is a one of one there's really no class that she fits into. The Ring didn't care and gave us an entry anyway which basically was "Pretend Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina was an homologated Sports Car and use that basic shape, don't cheat and make an LMP1 version but use a chassis that makes sense and meets GT2 rules. (CF chassis are not allowed in GT2 and The Enzo's V 12 is too fuel inefficient) so we started with a new US spec F430 Scuderia and and a F 430 GT2 for engine and gearbox and built P 4/5 Competition. As we started with a US legal chassis and use Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina's headlights windscreen and crash structures which are US legal when we're done we can reconvert P 4/5 Competizione to US road legal configuration.

    The 24 Hours of Nurburgring is an amazing race and the Big Factories (MB, BMW,Toyota, Aston, Lotus, VW, Mini, Audi, etc.) take it very seriously as the exposure to the European Market is huge. 210 cars start and also include many small teams that give it their all.
    250,000 fans a bit of Woodstock and Burning Man thrown in and it's something that stays with you for a long time. No Ferrari powered car has ever won The 24 Hours of Nurburgring and we're tempted to try again next year.

    Cheers!
     
  10. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
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    Would be a fantastic achievement!
     
  11. fuse

    fuse Formula Junior

    Aug 11, 2004
    340
    I am not sure what value can be placed on your experience of the idea, building the car, competing and so on. The video is, I am sure a tiny snippet. How many enthusiasts just here on this forum would love to have participated, or just to hear your stories about it?

    There are always some that had to have the pristine no mile cars. But if we are not making memories and experiences with these amazing machines, what's the point really?

    All I know is that I watched many of the videos and photos of your P4/5 c, and it made me happy, made me wish I could do so, made me stop worrying about work and other self imposed urgency and go out and drive.

    And it made me really want to go get a 458 Challenge.

    Thanks a lot. (both sincerely and sarcastically)
     
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  13. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

    Jul 28, 2010
    7,263
    Calgary, Canada
    #35 JeremyJon, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
    personally i can't see seperating the man from the machine, as P4/5 and P4/5C will IMO always be only at home with you

    the one thing i don't understand, is you've mentioned returning P4/5C to its street car origins?.....it may have began as something else, but IMO is entirely it's own entity now!



     
  14. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    Back to the original question regarding unused cars, lots of people smoke crack too, doesn't make it right. They are just cars, the best experiences come from using them.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Just making it street legal again which won't change it much at all.
     
  16. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

    Jul 28, 2010
    7,263
    Calgary, Canada
    understood, i had thought was meant to original condition

    viva la P4/5C :)


     
  17. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
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    I did not know that - and I pride myself in doing my research!
     
  18. Tifosi15

    Tifosi15 Formula 3

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    #40 Tifosi15, Jul 2, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
    Great post
     
  19. atomstrange

    atomstrange Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2005
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    Lenexa KS
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    Nathan
    I live by your motto, Why save it for someone else? After you win next year ferrari surely wont want to sell you parts then either. :)
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    True that's why we now make any parts we need.
     
  21. doppioexpresso

    doppioexpresso Karting

    Mar 29, 2010
    112
    Zürich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Marc
    Dear Jim

    I have asked myself the very same question when I bought my Maranello last year. Gian (the guy you met in Italy with the Stick-Shift 599) and I decided to use our cars as much as possible. Doing that the cars may loose their value but we couldn't care less for a lot of reasons.

    1. We have been dreaming of Ferraris ever since we have been friends. And we dreamed about driving them not having them in a Garage.

    2. In some 50 Years we are going to open a very good wine every now and then and we are going to talk about all the Road-Trips we did together - Like the one to Italy, just to meet this guy with the P4/5 ;-)
    I am probably going to put a movie on Youtube just like this guy here: http://www.youtube.com/user/GTO3987#p/u/4/Md_jcC6OnIU

    3. I found out that this low-milage-obsession only happens to modern cars. A 355, a 550 and a F40 seem to be much more desirable with low miles whereas most Ferraris from the 50' and 60' need to have a good History and need to prove that they have been kept well in the past.

    I guess an F40 with fewer miles sells better because it is still a streetcar. With over 1'000 items produced a potential buyer is trying to get the best example possible an that means low mileage.

    The P4/5 Competitione will one day be more expensive because of it's history including taking place at the 24-hours race. It will probably not even matter if it has a Ferrari Badge or not People just know the Story behind it...

    To make a long story short:

    1. Please keep running your car arround the Nürburgring. You can not imagine how much of a smile it puts on my face when it flys past me on Döttinger Höhe...

    2. I have been dreaming of an F40 for all my life. The day I'm going to buy one, I promisse to drive it as much as possible. And again, i won't buy the car as an investment. I buy the Car because I have dreamed of driving it for the past 23 years.
     
  22. Mr. Francesco

    Mr. Francesco F1 Rookie

    Oct 10, 2010
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    Everyone has different taste and expectations. Some owners prefer a mint condition vehicle while others can understand and accept basic wear and tear. P4/5C is in a different category, it's a race car that will be converted to street legal road use at the end of its racing career. No matter what though, there will only be 1 P4/5C, unless you change that production number. I look at all the old race cars that were involved in crashes, fires, etc..., and look at how valuable they are these days. These types of cars don't appeal to just anyone, but for the niche market that will enjoy these cars, they appreciate their history and battle scars :)
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus

    Dreams are what keep all of this going.
     

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