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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 275gtb6c, Oct 14, 2009.
Not to start a discussion on the finer points of the interpretation of a definition, but I think Julio's point still holds true. There are many ways to deceive apart from listing an object or selling one as something it is not. Omitting a known truth might be one, but I'm not a lawyer, so let me not go there.
I don't have anything against the car per se, and it is time that Ferrari draws a clear line for all to adhere to, and all includes themselves. If cars like these are allowed to participate in a factory-sanctioned and controlled event, they need to tell us at which point a car becomes not acceptable.
Your own definition contradicts your point.
The cars in question are designed to resemble real and valuable objects.
You can not "recreate" anything. Every act of creation has its own unique circumstances.
The word Knock-off may suit these cars best.
Everyone has the right to do with their property what they want. They can't expect others to respect their choices though.
If owning and enjoying the object in and of itself is not enough than something is wrong.
This statement is clearly wrong as the car is listed as a TdF on the entry list still published on the Ferrari website, car #502.
It must have been Neil that I was talking to, sorry there were no names exchanged and I had not met any of you before, so I was under the wrong impression.
I really appreciate the time you took to clarify the story. I also really appreciate that you say that you always say it is a rebody when people ask. For me, this makes a crucial difference. I am not against rebodies, I am just against misrepresentation. I'm still a bit confused about the way that this car was represented in the event, something is still not quite right in my mind about this.
The fact that you participated I have no problem with, but to list it as a 1958 250 TdF to me is not correct, and this opinion has not changed after reading your thorough explanation.
Anyway, I did enjoy seeing and hearing your car on the road and I hope that you continue to enjoy it.
nice pics of the mille..
are there any more pics of the 250swb? start number 501? with the italian stripe? what colour is the body and the chassis number? it is an interesting combination..
thanks in advance
I am always happy to provide details.
You are entitled to your opinion but I do like your suggestion that I have in someway misrepresented my car.
Like you, I submitted an application form and photographs, gave details of chassis, engine and gear box numbers and clearly stated that the body was made by Franco Ferrari and not Scaglietti. At no time did I claim to have a 250GT Berlinetta and the car entry was not listed as such. The organisers were happy for me to attend and how the organisers or reporters choose to describe my car is not my concern.
I would be most interested to hear your opinion on how I should describe my car in the future ?
Something shorter than "Originally a 1958 Ferrari 250 GT Coupe Pininfarina rebodied as a 250 GT Berlinetta but using the same mechanical equipment as an original competition Berlinetta and many original factory supplied 250 GT Berlinetta parts" would be appreciated !
It was the car that featured in the Ferrari Tribute clips on the Ferrari Channel of Youtube, right?
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What about '250 GT TdF replica'?
The Breadvan was rebodied in period and has historical significance. Your rebodied Ferrari, even though executed in a pasionate and accurate way (from what you have described) was NOT done in period and has no historical significance. The term replica seems appropriate enough in my opinion.
Bigodino described the situation perfectly.
And I can´t agree more about the Ferrari certificate with you. My comments about this were not related with your car. I also think it´s rubbish, nice if you can have it, why not, but how can people worry when buying a proper Ferrari if it has it or not? what the hell matters? If the car is good, that´s it. The history of the real Ferrari´s is completely known. For me, it is more important the opinion that Massini or other people knowing as much as him have than what Ferrari Classiche can say. Because they make big mistakes.
But as I said, your car is what it is, I wouldn´t mind al all owning it, but if in an event like the MM Ferrari insists in certified Ferrari´s, so original ones are the acceptable...
This reminds me of a debate in the caving world. If you write your name in a cave today, it's called vandalism. But if you did it 100 years ago, it's of historical importance. This is all the more true when it was during an historically important time, e.g. Union soldiers writing their names during the siege of Chattanooga during the US civil war. Of course, your vandalism of today will become historically significant (we hope!) in a century or two.
The Breadvan was an historically significant car during an historic era of racing. Other mods on less prominent cars of the same period are still of historic significance, but correspondingly less so, and depend on how successful the experiment was. And I agree that wiping out that history for a piece of paper doesn't always make sense. Let the value of the car decide.
Dear Kim, you are either wilfully misrepresenting or unintentionally misreading my posts.
I do not obsess about the level of your car's originality. I stated in my last post that I had no problem in you participating. I tried to wrap this up in a nice way, but it seems that was wasted energy. To say that I would suggest to, be happy with, or even be supportive of rebodying the Breadvan is presumptious and frankly insulting. I never said you should change your car. I also find it rather pretentious of you comparing your own car to the Breadvan. And for your information, that car HAS already been certified by Classiche under a new category for significant Ferraris.
It is NOT CORRECT to list your car as a 250 TdF, based on your own description of the history of the car. And this is my final post on the matter, this subject is not worth the typing effort.
I wish you many happy miles.
1958 Ferrari 250 GT Franco Ferrari Tour de France Recreation
I am very sorry I have upset you as it is not my intention.
Please read my comments again as you have clearly misunderstood.
Firstly, I have not compared my car to the Breadvan as my comments were in reference to the point made on Ferrari Classiche and nothing to do with my car.
Secondly, I am not suggesting you would be happy let alone supportive of rebodying the Breadvan.
And finally, my comment that At least the owner could enter the Mille Miglia without you (Jaime) and Onno complaining his GTO beating Breadvan was just a non original SWB was a light hearted joke.
So far you have called me presumptuous insulting rather pretentious and accused me of misrepresenting my car. Just as well one of us has a good sense of humour.
I have looked up the definition, thank you. English not being my native language, it is of course possible that I occasionally misuse words or misunderstand their meaning.
In this case, however, I will not stand corrected.
Your car has been listed as a Ferrari 250 GT Tdf, with no indication of the fact that it is a 250 GT PF which was rebodied many years after its production in order to look like a 250 GT TdF. By your omission (and Ferrari's), people are being deceived.
I see that you also list a "Lusso" among the cars you own. Did you destroy yet another poor 250 GT PF in order to build a fake Lusso?
Let me be perfectly clear and assure you that I am well aware that you have the right to do anything you want with your car. Break it in pieces to make a modern sculpture, paint it pink, or even make a fake TdF body for it. You can do it all.
And I can give my opinion.
You compare number obsession with the destruction of a car's original body and its replacement by a modern fake. Those are two very different things.
TdF's are very much available, I have been offered two in the past month. I would be happy to pass you the contacts if you are interested.
And I am really curious to know what you mean by "authentic replica". The Cambridge dictionnary hasn't been of much help.
I am pleased to confirm the body has not been destroyed and has been preserved.
I also believe you can have enjoyment without originality. They are not different things. Goodwood is a fine example. Look at the number of replica cars running last year. The majority of the spectators were happy to see a well constructed replica TR race rather than not. As stated, the purist number obsessed aficionado may not agree with this but each man to his own.
Now you are just being silly
Everyone knows you can't use a long wheel base chassis and inside plug engine to make a Lusso
Yes you can. The LWB can be very easily cut, and more than half the PF's (all the series II) carried an outside plug engine, just like the Lusso.
So, is your Lusso also a fa.., excuse me, a replica? Or would you call it an "authentic replica"???
It may have been edited out, but the Italian interviewer in the video posted ealier in this thread was clearly under the impression that 1069 is/was a real TdF.
No, your car is not a TdF. It is a Series I PF Coupe w/ a TdF replica body.
When Ferrari advertised this event and was soliciting entrants, it was clear then that Ferrari intended that the cars to be accepted were to be authentic, certified thru Classiche - the notion of an on-the-spot Classiche certification was entertained which was discussed at the beginning of this thread many months ago. It appears that Ferrari changed its mind, perhaps for more lira?
That may be, but I wonder how many of them realized they were not watching the real thing?
You will find that many of us who owned and/or researched vintage Ferraris in the 1980s find replica Ferraris particularly repugnant since many of the replicas made in that time frame were, in fact, made to deceive. There was no internet that allowed replicas to be identified within minutes back then and there were several publicized (and I'm sure many not-publicized) instances of replicas fraudulenty mis-represented and sold as authentic. This is also about the same time that the vault doors at Ferrari slammed shut for being able to obtain factory information such as Assembly Data Sheets, since these were essentially templates for making fakes.
This section is particularly distressing for those of us who care about the preservation of original vintage Ferraris. One of the major issues with the replica industry is that original Ferraris, typically 250 GTEs and 330GTs, are being cannibalized for these replicas. Unlike other manufacturers, Ferrari did not make a lot of these cars. As for Series I PF Coupes, Ferrari only made about 150. Several years ago, the keeper of the 250 PF Coupe register believed that at least 80 of the 353 PF Coupes made had been turned into replicas of something else. If I am correctly interpreting what you wrote, 1069 was a particularly important PF Coupe, since it was only 1 of 18 with a competition spec motor? In my view, the fact that someone turned this car into something else is is a great loss. There is a reason why the Ferrari Club of America does not allow replicas on the judging field and I would have thought that Ferrari SpA with its Classiche certification program would have supported the same notion - that to do so would encourage more really good and rare cars to be cut up into things they are not.
As Sr. Batista noted above, I see no connection between putting a replica body on an otherwise significant car and tracking serial numbers. As for your perjorative use of the word "purist," I am glad that there are those who care about keeping original vintage Ferraris as they were and not creating facsimiles of other cars for the sake of "entertainment."
I have always thought that Ferrari should make a "Classiche" line of replica cars, complete w/ short-lived second-gear synchros and totally inadequate ventilation. I know this will never happen and the immediate question would always be "is it a real vintage Ferrari?" But at least the carnage of the original cars would hopefully slow down, or maybe even stop.
Thanks. I have seen a nice matching number car for Euro 2.5 and one which was listed as destroyed in Pourret book with a new re-stamped engine for half the price. Either way I would still keep my car for racing.
"Authentic replica" in my view is when you make something as close to the original as is humanly possible. If this requires you to make new items because the original parts no longer exist then you should do so using the correct materials and techniques.
Sticking a body on a chassis with incorrect mechanics is not an "authentic replica" in my book.
The same philosophy applies to restoration.