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Mille Miglia 2010

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 275gtb6c, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Dear Kim,

    I respectfully disagree. There are still real TRs out there that even participate in events like Goodwood. There's no need for replica TRs to participate (no matter how beautifully excecuted).

    Now if all original TRs were destroyed a faithful replica would be acceptable because it does give the audience at least something. I think it's quite accepted in the vintage aviation world.

    Frankly I don't understand Lord March for allowing replicas to an event which does so much to authenticate the atmosphere from the old days on and around its race track. I looked it up in the Goodwood program of 2007 when Mr Twyman participated in his 250 TR replica but there was no such mention of the term replica (in fact all participating cars were presented as the real deal). Isn't that a little bit deceiving towards the audience?

    Best, Peter
     
  2. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    Julio

    Clearly you are made of money. A GTE would be a much cheaper option and yes my Lusso is a matching number original

    Kim
     
  3. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
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    Clearly I am not made of money.

    If I was, I would own a 250 TdF (a real one), a 500 TRC (also a real one), a 340 Mexico (real, too), and a 500 Superfast (yes, a real one). I would probably add a 275 NART(real) and a 166MM Barchetta (also real) just for good measure.

    Because I am just well-off but not made of money, I own fewer and lesser Ferraris, including a humble 250 GT PF Series I, just like the one you have butchered. But guess what... They are all real! I believe in adapting my toys to my means, and I dislike pretention. But as you correctly say, to each his own...

    Congratulations. I can't afford a Lusso right now.
     
  4. Enigma Racing

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    #304 Enigma Racing, May 24, 2010
    Last edited: May 24, 2010
    Julio

    Please read my post 280

    No blood on my hands

    I brought it butchered and paid extra to keep the body

    What chassis number is your PF ?

    Kim
     
  5. Enigma Racing

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    Pretention !!!

    What is it with Ferrari Chat ?

    I have mixed with car enthusiast all my life and never had so many people being rude since I replied to one of the members rubbishing my car and accusing me of mis-representation.

    Sadly, the comments only serve to illustrate what non Ferrari owners think of us

    Chill
     
  6. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
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    I haven't the strengh to reply to all of your comments........... but I will
     
  7. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    #307 Bryanp, May 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I didn't mean to batter you w/ comments - but all these issues have been the subject of considerable commentary in this forum for many years. If there were a way for replicas to exist w/out necessarily including the destruction/rebodying of existing vintage Ferraris, I would be all for it so long as the replica was identified as such. I have a little funeral in my mind every time I see a replica that used the guts of a real vintage Ferrari.

    On the other hand, if the PF coupe looked like this, then go for it. . . . (the late s/n 1713)
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  8. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

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    If there were no buyers for butchered cars, perhaps people wouldn't butcher them.
     
  9. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

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    #309 Julio Batista, May 24, 2010
    Last edited: May 24, 2010
    I said I dislike pretention. Do you?
     
  10. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    what happened to this beautiful MM thread...., it ends in a dog fight about replica's).

    Comon guys, let it go. I like TdF's a lot, and almost bought 0899...Compared to replica's this one is almost the same,

    ciao
    Oscar

    (but missing an apex that is much worse......)
     
  11. Enigma Racing

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    Dream on
     
  12. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    If you read the ads replicas have been done as close to the original as humanly possible since the day one. Every single car has been described with terms like "exact recreation" and "100% authentic down to the smallest detail" since 1970's or so. That's fancy verbiage, nothing else.

    Besides, when buying a replica, you are creating demand for such things and claiming not to have blood on one's hands is a little bit naiive. A few years back 212 Inter Coupe 0259EL was converted into a very low quality Barchetta replica because it was believed there are people who will buy such a car.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  13. Enigma Racing

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    Fancy verbiage is used in all adverts

    If you know what you are looking at you can make your own mind up on authentic or not

    KIM
     
  14. Enigma Racing

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    Dear Osca

    How true and s/n 0899GT illustrates one of the points I am trying to make.

    I looked at the car a couple of years ago and it was very cheap because the original car was thought to have been destroyed. Since then the owner spent time with Ferrari Classiche and has obtained a “partial authentication”. Classiche certified that everything is original with the exception of the rear axle, the engine and the body. Classiche apparently provided a quote for the refurbishment of the engine of 146,000 Euros and a further 20,000 Euros to acquire the new engine block and re-stamping the original numbers on it. Once all the work had been done, including fitting bumpers for some strange reason a “ full certification can most likely be obtained with a new matching numbers engine”. Ironically Classiche are happy with the new body made by the same outfit that made mine.

    The car looks good and has run the Mille Miglia (in 1994, 1995 and 1998) as well as the French Tour Auto (5 participations form 1993 to 1997)

    The point is 0899GT has very few original parts but is deemed to be an original 250GT Berlinetta and if you inspect many competition cars you would also find this to be the case. I support the idea that Classiche verify the standard of work of the cars they certificate but question the relevance of such a certificate when so much new work has been done. The buyer of 0899GT will have a nice car and a certificate but it will still be 75% new

    I have found the “dog fight” amusing although I am surprised by the reaction of some of the participants. I have owned many cars and Ferraris over the years some good some bad. One of them is a Tdf “replica”. I bought it five years ago to race as I could not afford an original and even if I could would have been too scared to do so. Over the period I have changed many things to make it as authentic as possible. My motivation was not to deceive as has been suggested but because I wanted to make it the best replica possible. Although it will never be an original TdF, I take satisfaction that to me it has become more “original” then many TdF’s on the road today.

    Reply on the MM to follow

    Kind regards

    Kim
     
  15. thecheddar

    thecheddar Formula 3

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    Does every vintage thread have to devolve into this same empty debate?

    F-chat has grown very angry of late it seems.
     
  16. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Exactly, but somebody's opinion on what's authentic or not isn't worth much. Most replica owners think their car cannot be told apart from an original and behave accordingly.

    I do agree that there is a point building a replica using a 508 B-C-D frame and as said earlier I also think that cars based on honest cars with an original chassis stamping should not be mixed with collections of parts restamped to match suitable papers with the rest of the parts coming from god knows where - or fakes where long lost racing cars have been unscrapped after 30 years or so. Best wishes, Kare
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    The 1980's will go down in classic car history as a very black period.

    I was not at all surprised that this replica was made in those terrible times when the only thing that mattered was how much profit they could get for a car. I personally do not believe this car was converted due to passion, but simply for $'s like all other replicas.

    You cannot undo the past so you might as well enjoy it :), but if it was mine I would paint in tidy white letters the word Replica on the rear of the car like Ferrari used to when the tested competition cars on the road with temporary plate numbers.
    Pete
     
  18. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Oh come on Peter. You know as well as I do that the Body the Breadvan has currently has been hacked about over the years. Most of the historically significant racing Ferraris have been crashed at one time or another and then rebuilt. Many road cars have been "restored" to the point that all trace of patina and history has been eradicated. Plenty have been built up from a chassis plate or a wishbone. Whilst I do regret that many 250 GTEs, 330 GTs etc. have been rebodied as 250 SWB replicas or whatever many of those chassis would no longer exist now if they had remained original . But the fact is that people will pay more for a 250 GTE with 250 SWB replica body than they will for a 250 GTE.

    I have seen Kim's car several times and I do think it is entirely unreasonable for people here to be picking on him. I don't wish to speak for Kim, but I certainly didn't read what he wrote as in any way implying that his car has the same historical significance as the Breadvan. There are a fairly small number of people who care whether 1069 has the original body or not (or a body the same shape as it had when it was manufactured) and I'll wager most of those watching the Tribute at the roadside were just delighted to see the car. By the way, the best bit of the car for me is the wonderful collection of vintage passes tied round the gearstick!

    Jonathan
     
  19. Enigma Racing

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    #319 Enigma Racing, May 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As promised a return to the Mille Miglia and one of my own highlights.

    On returning to Brescia, Chris and his beautiful California Spyder (albeit without an original engine…..oops sorry I don’t want to start that one again!) and I decided to duck out of the final parade and go to Piazza della Loggia for a beer instead. After ignoring the frantic waving of the organisers and directions and after moving several crash barriers we arrived at the piazza. We were shortly joined by Omer in his equally beautiful ( I am biased) RHD Lusso.

    20 minutes and a couple of beers later, I suddenly noticed a glow under the car and realised it was on Fire. PANIC. I opened the car door to pop the bonnet, take off the handbrake and push the car clear. After all, if we were going to have a fire I didn't want Chris and my car going up too ! While I pushed Neil opened the bonnet. The flames were at the bottom of the engine and starting to lick up over the exhaust shield and thick smoke was drifting across the square. Thankfully, while Chris and I were considering throwing our beer over the fire (a noble act), Neil had the wisdom to isolate the battery with the cut off switch and the flames started to die down.

    On close inspection, the cause was a loose wire from the starter motor that was shorting on the sump. The direct electrical supply had heating the wire and ignited the cable surround. Omer mobilised the factory and had the car, together with new starter motor returned the next day and Omer was able to continue his tour around Italy.

    I have always believed old cars have a soul. I cannot remember how many times a car has broken down, only after a race or long journey has been completed. Omers luck was that his car choose to catch fire with an expert to hand. Had the fire started in the underground car park at the hotel with all the cars we all wouldn’t have been so lucky.
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  20. andric

    andric Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2008
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    Outstanding pics! Anymore?
     
  21. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
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    Hi Kim,

    I have seen your TdF recreation in Brescia and I have to admit it lookd quite good and it is obviously made with a lot of attention to detail. The body looks much better then the one on the rebuilt #0899GT.

    You say that your car was built with a lot of original TdF parts. Could you please explain what this means? Which parts? And if those parts came from original TdF's which ones would that be?

    Best regards

    Matthias
     
  22. Enigma Racing

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    Dear Mattias

    The original owner had a close association with the factory from his racing and bought the remaining original spare parts. The bonnet, grill, fuel tank, filler cap and seat frame were all from/for a Berlinetta.

    What were you driving in Brescia ?

    Regards

    KIM
     
  23. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
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    Hi Kim,

    thanks for the info. I was only as a spectator in Brescia. The last Mille Miglia I participated was 2004 in my 0897 GT. After 5 Milles between 1996 and 2004 (when a 1958 TdF was still accepted) it was enough for me. I had a good time but the traffic with all the support, media and fan cars got worse and worse so I decided not to apply again. But I still enjoy to be there on Thursday to meet a lot of friends and see some nice cars.

    What I like about the new organisation is that they give the nonspectacular cars like a VW Beetle, Citroen 2CV and ID 19 a chance but what I definetly don't like is that they still have too many Mercedes 300 SL (20) and Porsche 356 (15) and that the cars are grouped. It is no fun to see for example four Triumph TR 2 and then three TR 3 one after the other. They should mix it better. And where are all the "big" cars like the Alfa 2.9, the Maserati 300 S and 450 S, the early Ferrari TdF, the 315 or 335 S that used to participate in the 1990's?

    Best regards

    Matthias
     
  24. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #324 BigTex, May 25, 2010
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    ...were there any more pretty girls?????
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  25. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I doubt there's an owner left, with the enthusiasm to subject a 315/335 to the current stress....

    Cannot say that I blame them.
     

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