Milling machines to make Ferrari parts

My dad has a few new Haas VF8 mills and a few Haas PC1600 mills that we sometimes use to make cool stuff on. Typically, the machines are runing 24/7, making parts for the company, but when we're just fooling around, we use a 3D Systems SLA-7000 stereolithography machine to make things that would otherwise be impossible to produce using any other form of machining. Of course, the SLA parts are never for anything critical, but the mills do a great job.

 

A couple of VF-1’s, VF-3 with rotary and HL-2. All good tools, easy to use, and bullet proof. The controls are the easiest to use in the industry period, easy to change from mill to lathe because the controls are virtually the same. If you’re skilled, there is nothing on a Ferrari that couldn’t be manufactured on these machines combined with a good CAD / CAM program.

 

Haas makes great machines, they are all extremely accurate, fast and quiet. They don't require a whole bunch of guys to run, and they never break. We needed the bearings replaced in one of the PC1600's spindles, but the procedure was fast and easy. I think that it would be justifiable to say that Haas makes some of the best CNC machines out there.

 

Haas produces an excellent machine for the money but still not on the same level as top quality Japanese CNC manufacturers, IMHO. Mori Seiki, Mazak, Matsura, Okuma etc are still the best on the market from my experience. We use all Fanuc control Japanese CNC's. Excellent product. Not a hobby for me, my OM Vertical Turning Centers have 48" chucks, my twin pallet Mazak FH880 has twin 36" pallets, our sister facility has a Haas bridge mill that will machine 60" x 120", they love it!
My father has a Jet mill and 14" lathe in his barn. Retired but still likes to machine prototype parts for his cameras. Good machine value.

 

I have a Grizzly mill and Enco lathe at my hope shop, and I have an Okuma CNC lathe and Bridgeport CNC VMC at my work. We are going to be getting a new VMC soon to supplement the Bridgeport and it will probably be a Fadal 3016.

I like the haas stuff. I think the TM-1 and TL-1 are good machines. I think you picked a good pair of machines to do what you're doing. I think Haas machines are well made, although they do not compare in features to the other larger machines. You would not want to machine molds on a Haas, for example. I don't think the speed and accuracy of a Haas will compare with the likes of Mori Seiki, Makino, DMG and others. There is a LOT of stuff made these days on Haas machines, great bang for the buck - Fadal too. In the small machines (not the toolroom, but the EMC and MiniMill), I tend to think Fadal has more value for the dollar than Haas, especially since Fadal has just gone to Fanuc controls and servos on their latest machines (switched away from the troublesome 104/d control).

I have used a TL-1 and a TM-1 and I think you will find the conversational control to be a big thing. You can get a gang-type tooling for the TL-1. Did you get the tailstock? Probably dont need it but nice to have. They are coming out with a revised TL-1 later this year that will be a fully enclosed machine. Same ol' TL-1, just with a full enclosure. Did you get the changer on the TM-1? Rigid tapping? I've played with a TM-1 and it's pretty impressive what the machine will do.

What are you going to use for CAD/CAM? We use Inventor and RhinoCad for design, and Mastercam and VisualMill for the CAM side. I have Pro/E from back in my engineering days but it seems to be like using a sledgehammer to drive in a finish nail for much of what we do. On the CAM side, I am waiting to see what Mastercam X looks like, and I also did a demo of OneCNC XR, which looked promising, but seemed to have less control and options than OneCNC, IMO.

Good luck and if you need any help, feel free to PM or email me or post, I'm glad to help out.

Cheers,
Mike

 

i personally dont know how to use a CNC machine...but i do work for a guy who owns one. it seems to be difficult to operate. u have to go through some schoolin to work a cnc machine or to be a pro at it.

i have seen one make a real revolver (gun)
the possibilities are endless to produce something.

but i think u have to have some type of schematic.

just my 2 cents

 

Hank,
Fanuc controls are based on G and M codes etc.
Regarding a CNC lathe tailstock. In our machines holes are drilled from the turret, not the tailstock. The tailstock is in place to center and hold long parts for turning operations. To be honest, we find them in the way more than useful! I am not familiar with the Haas small toolroom lathe though. Sounds like a great machine!
We use AutoCad and MaserCam. My techs find MasterCam superior to the other systems we have used in the past. Yes the systems are expensive.
Where time is not a factor you can MDI into the control until you find a system.
John

 

I've got a 6" Jet lathe and a Jet Mill at the hanger. We used to use them for the bikes when I was racing. Haven't run them for quite a while, but I keep them in operating condition. Also a tig welder, etc. A pretty complete frabrication shop, except for no foundry (Dad had one, and I learned to make patterns, when he was in business).

I don't know about the hass machines. Can you get CNC machines for the home? If so, can anyone send me their address, etc?

Art

 

Hi.......

Working at the Exploratorium in San Francisco as a volunteer in the machine shop.

Place has World War II Monarch and LeBlond lathes and Bridgeport and Lagun mills. All of the machines produce great parts, even after 60 years of service; have made titanium exhibit parts accurate to 0.001-inch with regularity.

Would consider second-hand machines from these manufacturers before purchase of a new one.

Check out www.machinetools.com as a source.

Doesn't make sense to me to buy a CNC machine until you learn the basic operations by hand. If you are only making one or two parts per year, do you need CAD/CAM software and computer control of the lathe and/or mill ??
Better to spend the money on collets, parallels, DROs and a motor-drive for the mill table.

Check out www.emachineshop.com for custom service. Submit a drawing and you will get the part in the mail.

Good luck and have fun !!

Frank............23005
www.masiarz.net/bb_resource

 

Hi again...........

Anyone have any experience with the combo mill/lathe machines.....Grizzly and Prazi and Smithy and the like ??

Comments and/or recommendations ??

Frank...........23005

 

Hank,

All CNC controls use G-code. G-code is a "language" kind of like HTML. For example you may write "G01 X1.5 Y1.5 F2.5" which would move the tool from wherever it is, to coordinates X1.5 Y1.5 at a feedrate of 2.5 inches per minute (IPM). Many machine controls implement their own G-codes and over the years the more popular G-codes have become pretty standard. You will find however that some machines (mostly high end stuff) will have custom G-codes to take advantage of the special features of that machine. The Haas and all other CNC machines will support "vanilla" G-code just fine. The control is generally a matter of preference. I am a computer/software guy from days gone by, so I am comfortable using most controls. The Haas control is very easy to use for the non-machinist. The TM-1 and TL-1 have a conversational aspect too. What that means is you can use the machine three ways. For example on the TL-1 you can mount up a piece of stock and use the handles to move the X and Y and it will cut manually and you can see the measurements on the screen. You can also use it in full CNC mode where you take a G-code program and load it in, and it will run itself and make a part. Or you can do the conversational part, where you go through menu screens (like a wizard in Microsoft-speak) that will ask how big your stock size is. Then you say what you want to do, like turn/face/groove/chamfer and it will ask how much you want to do for the operation (i.e. turn down from 1.5OD to 1.25OD). You then 'touch off' the face and side (so it knows the size of the stock) and say go, and it will turn it down to the size you stated. For you, this may be a very valuable part of the TL-1 and TM-1 machines if you're not coming from a traditional machinists background.

If you are making mostly 1-off parts that should be no problem. If you ever want to produce a bunch of a given part, you would probably want to do it in CAD and use CAM to make the G-code. You probably know this but CAD is where you draw the part, and CAM is where you see the part you made, you specify what tools to use and how to do the cutting. The CAM software outputs G-code which gets loaded in the machine, then you make the part. For CAD, I have used a BUNCH of stuff. I have RhinoCAD, Pro/Engineer, Inventor and AutoCAD. I would recommend either Inventor or Rhino. They are both easy to use, Rhino is IMO a little more powerful. If you have a student in your family (or know one), the student edition of Rhino is $149. On the CAM side, it gets more expensive. MasterCAM is a pretty good package that we use, but it is very hard to learn and very very extensive in the options it allows. WAY more than you need, IMO, and would probably be too confusing for the casual user. There are some easy to use packages out there. A couple you may want to look at are VisualMill and OneCNC XR. VisualMill is $1k for the basic version (which is all you'd need) and OneCNC XR is $1,500 for the basic version. I have tested them both out and I much prefer OneCNC XR. It is a graphical interface that allows you to use wizards to easily make the G-code for your part. Nice piece of software for $1.5k.

On the TL, you probably won't need the tailstock for drilling, unless you are doing LOOONG parts. When I was at the Haas shop they were demo'ing a gang-type holder for the cross slide that included a tool holder that would hold a drill bit. You can just mount the bit inside the holder on the cross slide and drill with that (just be sure to center it first) . Cold air will be good for cutting aluminum and can work on steel too if you aim it square. Rigid tapping is a very nice thing to have, you're right it can be added, just check with them how much $$ because they often charge WAY more for field-install options.

When you order the lathe, you may want to ask about the fully-enclosed one. I did not see it at Eastec this year but I heard they had it as Westec. It's not a different lathe, just an 'upgraded new model' of the TL-1. It may be 2 years out, or 2 weeks out, I really dont know.

For materials, you can't go wrong buying from www.onlinemetals.com. They are great guys to deal with. I buy a lot of tooling from www.mcmaster.com and www.mscdirect.com. I use insert tooling on the lathe which was a great upgrade from solid bits. Any questions feel free to PM me - I enjoy this stuff

 

I have found that nomally you want to stay away from the small home shop type machines. They do work nice, but you need to work pretty slow on them or the mill chatters and the lathe stalls. They are ok for very small stuff I guess, or if you are in no hurry to get done, with paitence you can do bigger parts.

For a mill, a standard bridgeport type machine (I had an MSC copy that worked pretty well) will make most anything.

For a lathe, I like a 14" machine for general work...the smaller machine tend to stall when you work with diameters over 3"-4" or drills over 3/4"

I don't bother with keeping machines at home any more because work is only 15 minutes away and I have the keys to the R&D shop, they have anything I could ever need...except a big TIG welder, that I still keep at home.

 

Wow, with all the techno talk going around in this thread, I'm going to sound like a turkey saying this. I have a small 1950's-era Atlas 6" lathe given to me by my grandfather many years ago. I use it all the time for small things. Just the other day I made a little tool with it for installing a seal on the clutch slave cylinder of the Mondial. I have made spacers, suspension parts, all kinds of stuff. You never know how useful a lathe is until you have one! I very rarely find that my lathe isn't big enough for a job, but some jobs can be very slow working by hand.

For bigger jobs, I go to my dad's house. He has a big metal lathe and a milling machine, but I don't know much about them.

Birdman

 

Damn, I'm glad I was bored enough to read this thread!!! Though I'd love to have my own metal working tools, I can't afford them nor do I know how to use them (but I know I could easily learn how) so that URL is just what I've been looking for. You guys rock

 

I have a "small" amount of experience using various CAD systems and the market has (is) undergoing a certain amount of falling out.

1.) The big boys are really Ungraphics and Catia right now (And maybe a little Pro-Engineer-but they are fading some.) Most big car and aircraft guys use these two. They are all very expensive (15-20k/seat and up-way up) plus yearly maintainance fees that are big. (10-15% per year/every year.) They are vastly capable, very complicated but excel in programs requiring very large assemblies and major collaboration and data managment. Not really necessary for the smaller company or "guy" as the expense/learning curve is steep.

2.) Next step down are packages like Solid Edge, Solid Works and Widfire (Pro-E). These all run in the 5k region for the base package. They can do most all of the basic and complicated 3d solids, surfacing and 2d detailing that most companies need. They usually have no or smaller license fees. But these can also get up in price, if one wants FEA, CNC packages, etc. In general there is not much you can't do in design with these packages and they are all about the same price. So it is down to personal preference. I like Wildfire and Solidworks.

3.) Much lower cost packages--Turbocad, Rhino, some Cadkey and Autocad stuff. These packages are actually very good value for your money--most can do 80% of the bigger boys for 1/10 to 1/2 the price. They lack some features but not many you really need. For a guy on his own or a small shop then there is nothing wrong with looking at these.

It all depends on our needs and money.

I have designed in 3D solids a complete Trans Am car using CADKEY, an LMP car using IDEAS, a Champcar using Pro-Engineer, and curently use Solid Works, Cadkey, Pro-E and some UG/Catia. Theyhave all worked for me in the end.

Also on a personal note, and I know I will get flack for this--but I am not impressed with either RHino or Autocad. But I know lots of people who love them.

Right now I would go for Solid Works, if I had nothing.

 

i do not own my own mill or lathe but i use them at school alot. I am pretty good at machining parts. Our school has a pretty good shop 4 mills 10 lathes and 2 cnc mills along with other machines and 4 welders. We must have a pretty good program, the 4 kids that where sent to madison to compete took the top 4 spots in state compettitin. Now they are off to the nationals.

 

Are any of the people with lathe machines willing to make parts for other Ferrari owners? If so, please post that information.

One day I will probably get a lathe, but right now I do not have the time.

One possible source might be government surplus. I know one person who got a lathe from a base closing.

 

Hi Andy..........

Great to hear that schools still teach these skills.

Can you provide a list of the types of lathes and mills that you use in the school shop ?? Have any favorites or ones which produce superior pieces ??

Thank you !!

Frank..........23005
www.masiarz.net/bb_resource

 

I downloaded the eMachineshop software and spent an hour or so creating a steering wheel hub adapter which I'll use to mate a Moto-lita wheel onto a standard 50's Ferrari wheel hub. I got a price quote of $175 to machine and ship the part, which doesn't sound all that bad. If I can find 10 friends who need the same part, the price per unit drops considerably!

 

For our CAD/CAM programing, we use Unigraphics and Solidworks

 

I'm almost finished designing a part but I've run into a problem so if someone could send me a private message I'd be gratefull. I need one edge of my part (3mm steel plate) to be pointed so the faces of the point are 30º from the surface, like a chamfer of 30º on both sides and thus giving a pointy/knifeblade edge. TIA!