Miura "S" and Miura "SV" motors??

you should have asked Joe.

 

The power differences, from the Miura to the Miura SV, are not significant at all. Key points with the Miura SV, is the excellent chassis, and in some cases, a factory split sump etc...


Sound ? Different exhaust systems (and other factors), produce different music/noise.

 

That's my understanding as well. There are a few subtle differences between the models but only a few horsepower difference. "S"-370hp, "SV"-385hp according to Coltrin/Marchet. I can't speak to specifics on individual cars but differences in air cleaners (open velocity stacks) and exhaust can make a significant sound difference. Tuning and individual driving style are also important factors.

Anyway you look at it, a badass angry sounding car. All the "sound system" you really need.

 

Roy,
I have custom exhaust on my S which makes it sound very raw and loud. According to Claudio, US cars were tuned down to pass smog. I'm no expert, but I feel more comfortable driving the S than the SV. Somehow it feels lighter and more maneuvarable. It sure feels like it revs a lot higher than the SV, but perhaps because I don't dare to drive the SV the same way I drive the S.

 

He was there!....I think.

Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

All correct. No speculation here. The main differences between an S and an SV are the chassis, suspension & wheels improvements. Handling, roadholding and the tendency to 'take off' at high speed effectively engineered out.

The engine differences are small, cam profile revised for driveability thus sacrificing some top speed, slightly different carburettor jetting all giving a small torque/hp benefit. USA SVs have the air-pump equipped engine and a host of other safety features outlined in the Miura thread in the past.

And youre absolutely right, different exhaust systems produce different sounds. My 4884 has a standard SV exhaust as fitted by the works. It remains exactly as it was built in 1971 having been kept in hiding by one man for 30 years before I got it and restored it. The one allowance I have given myself are the open (mesh-covered) velocity trumpets and they account for the "tea-kettle whistling" that occurs each time I open the throttle. I have listened to perhaps 75 different Miuras over the past 20 years and they all sound different. At any rate, 4884 does as its number plate suggests: it "FLIES LO". LOL. Big sound does not always = velocity. SVs generally sound quieter I have observed.

Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

All correct sir. I will have to award you an "A" for that report

Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

Alex,

I love your S. Can I buy it? (silly question)
US SVs had the air-pump equipped engines to pass smog. I agree that youd feel more comfortable in the S as your SV is worth twice as much! Can I buy your SV? (another silly question).
BTW, I knew the second you started your S that you had a non-original exaust on there, but I have to say that the car looks great and kudos to you for persevering to get the exact correct shade of "Arancio Miura".

Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

Another note Joe, as Ralph and I discussed when I did the article featuring his car, there was very little consistency in anything from Lambo in those days, changes were done on the fly during manufacturing. Each car has idiosyncrasies. Some that are supposed to be "identical" models have different bits. It is like if they ran out of a batch of parts they would just start the next box. The split Sump is true but again not consistent as are little things that evolved along the way. Ralph's car is a great example of this.

Many cars of the era were like this. the shelby gt350-500 sometimes had bits not really intended screwed in because they were there and the "Right" ones were backordered. Same goes for determining originality of almost any craft built car. I have seen early Jags that seem to be a loose assortment of parts congealed into a car...

 

Well, TOM is wrong. It is NOT correct that relative to the SV that the S had "more race type motor, higher HP" etc. Please ask TOM to produce the data that shows that production S cars had the aforementioned attributes and higher horsepower over production SVs. Inquiring minds wish to ascertain and share in this new-found received wisdom.

What IS correct is the fact that the published factory power numbers are optimistic. According to my studies, realistic dyno-tested numbers are:
P400 - 320bhp
P400S - 335bhp
P400SV - 350bhp
Standard engines built to standard spec do not put out more than these numbers, no matter what the factory or anyone else will have you know.
Also, the P400S is well-known for having a taller gearing and that combined with its slimmer tires and frontal silhouette as it cuts through the air = a slightly higher top speed (if it doesnt 'take off'. LOL).
According to some factory numbers I have, it states that gearing will allow 24mph per 1,000rpm which = 177.6mph @ 7,400rpm. I would estimate an SV's top speed at circa 175mph.
However, it is also well-known that the chassis and suspension geometry upgrades to an SV make that car's handling worlds apart from that of an S. I have been a passenger in an SV on the track and going through the 'twisties' it remained focused and planted whilst the S ahead of us 'squealed' and slid through the corners, eventually succumbing to the indignity of being passed by the SV on the outside. I have driven a few P400 and P400S and all I can say is that they do not feel nearly as stable at speed as any on the 6 SVs I have owned felt.

Anyway, they are different and the perfect solution is to have BOTH. Like Alex (our hero).

As for me, I absolutely love my SV just the way it is. The way it looks, the detail, the colors, the quality of the restoration, the way it runs, the way it sounds. I lust after no other. It is rumored (this perpetuated by 'Blondie The Wife) that I smile in my sleep. OK, maybe she is exaggerating.....
My SV 4884 is the Homologation Prototype for the series of 21 USA cars and Im very lucky to have it complete with factory documentation from the original Bill of Sale on. Every time I start it up my freind who bequeathed it to me is laughing his a$$ off up there in the sky.

But for some reason, for the past 30 years the SV has always been worth roughly twice the price on an S. Dont ask me why....

BTW, the Miura engines below in their factory original form will produce different sounds. Add a different set of headers or custom exhaust and you can produce just about any effect...

Joe
www.joesackey.com
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Joe,

didnt the SV have larger inlet ports and inlet valves too, or is that another myth perpetuated by "that" book ?


on another note what exhaust and headers would you say are best for the miuras ?

 

Thats correct, the SV heads have slightly larger inlet ports & inlet valves and 'that' book at least gets that part correct. It all adds up to a 15bhp or so gain. The mods fo increased power for the SV were in the engine's top end, but remember too, that as stated by the factory, compression was increased slightly also.

The best headers and exhausts for a Miura are those..... that came from the factory on the car ;-)

Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

thats the answer i expected, though not necessarily the one i wanted to hear - lol

 

Here is what the factory itself declares:

Miura P400S - 370bhp, compression ratio of 10,4:1

Miura P400SV - 385bhp, compression ratio of 10,7:1

As Ive pointed out earlier, I would call the factory's numbers a little 'optimistic' and 335bhp and 350bhp for the S and SV respectively are the received wisdom upon testing.
One can deduce that the factory's point was that the unit was getting more potent...


Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

can modern rebuilds and fettling improve on these figures by any noticeable degree ? eg modern pistons. balancing, stem seals, electronic ignition ?

i ask knowing that you dont normally approve of modifications from standard these days, but am just interested in your opinion on if they can be effective

 

they can,
there were period engine already giving more than standard ones

 

Obviously, the owner of any SV can afford to have an S (or in fact two!) instead. But Ive noticed Ive "walked my talk" and over the past 20 years Ive owned no fewer than 6 Miura P400SVs :-0

Clearly, I have a problem that needs to be addressed, but I believe I have found true love at last. LOL.

I dont mean to hijack this thread into an "SV Love Fest" (LOL) but having contributed and provided the information that this thread seeks I shall take poetic licence to wax lyrical.

1. To me the SVs chassis gives the Miura driving experience Du Jour. Remember, all the work done in development was to benefit the Swan Song version of the Miura and make it what the Chief Development engineer called: "A completely different car". Having driven several P400 and P400S I find them to be "twitchy" and "squirrely" by comparison. The strengthening of the SVs chassis coupled with the complete revising of its rear suspension geometry make it an awesome handling car when pushed through corners or at high speed. Thats where the stability of the SV makes a huge difference. The ride is simply fantastic (if you keep it on the tall-profile tires it was designed around as I do) and its one of those cars that I actualy look forward to driving.
2. THe SVs engine is a jewel. It is quieter (yet still quite raw compared to the Countach or assorted Audis) and power delivery is smoother. Thats the way it was engineered and thats exactly what like about it. It has gobs of low-down torque and power so driving it in the real world is a pleasure. As we all know, top speed shootouts in today's world are completly meaningless...
3. The styling of the SV is achingly beautiful. Yet, the rear end has a muscular disposition that I prefer much more over the rather anaemic and 'weak' looking rear end of the earlier cars which appear rather 'under-tired' with those thin rear wheels, for my liking. The rear three-quarter view of a P400SV is.... well, pure sex. I love the smoothness of the SVs front hood with the deliberately eliminated 'eyelashes' and the flush bumper/lighting application, all tastefully redesigned by the boy-wonder Marcello Gandini. The gorgeous three-peice rear lights, the sand-cast 9 inch rear wheels and the 7 inch fronts both without the butresses of the units for the P400 and S. Love it, love it, love it.
4. Maybe its just me but the value of SVs adds to the satisfaction of ownership. The fact that the cars inspire rabid enthusiasm and the fact that super-prominent collections worldwide want one and will pay what it takes to get one adds to the appeal for me. In the late seventies, an earlier Miura was $25k and a Miura SV was $50k. 30 years later nothing has changed. The SV is still twice the value of the earlier cars and more in some cases. Dont make me post it but yes I have my Homologation Prototype insured by Hagerty for $1 million US. Would I sell it for that number? Nope.
5. Another aspect for me is that the SV is clearly the Miura Du Jour, the ultimate Miura and a car that made Ferruccio so proud of his Swan Song that he kept one for himself. He too could have chosen a P400 or and S. Talk to the old time engineers and mention "SV" and a hallowed silence will follow. So the historical significance of the SV is ideed another appealing aspect for me.

So there is a short summary of what the fuss is all about for me personally. Just my thoughts as theyve flowed in answer to the question Ive been asked before: "Why are you so enthusiastic about SVs then?"

And now lets enjoy some images of an SV at last Saturday's Cars & Coffee, courtesy of Lex Ballowe.

Joe
www.joesackey.com
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Actually in restoring the cars you cant help but improve them slightly just because of the aforementioned modern blueprinting, balancing and tuning.

Joe
www.joesackey.com

 

so true

i couldnt have put it better myself

far be it from me to contradict the master (and i mean no sarcasm with that statement joe, your knowledge is legendary and the fact your so willing to share it along with your experiences makes this forum somewhat special)
anyways i digress what i was trying to say is this that aren't the SV fronts 7.5" ?

Nick.

 

Holy Cow Joe. Don't tell me you took off the air cleaners. :-O

Guaranteed main bearing wear -- significant.

Way too much dirt/dust gets into open velocity stacks. David Love proved that with various rebuilds of his 1957-ish Ferrari TR. Lots of wear in that motor with just stacks so he now runs an air cleaner and has documented the difference, which again, is significant.

Cheers,

Fred
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Roy
Glad you didn't ask Joe Saturday......then the rest of us
would not have gotten all the aforementioned expertise!!!!

 

says mesh covered.

 

Holy Cow. Im slipping. Did I not say 7.5"? Thanks Chaos for keeping me honest.

Joe
www.joesackey.com