Miura, the original supercar | Page 647 | FerrariChat

Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    Well, its well known amongst collectors that COYS has not the best reputation in the business.
    I know of many problems they had with buyers and therefore I don`t believe anything they mention in their catalog descriptions. But in their description of 3132 they stated that there was a modification done on the chassis to match SV-specs.
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,038
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    3132 has a P400S bonnet which does not fit a SV chassis. If it was rebuilt to full SV spec, the S bonnet wouldn't fit, the information of which I believe is also in this thread. A P400S chassis cannot be rebuilt to SV specification. The gauge of the steel used in the chassis of Miuras got progressively thicker throughout its production life and the SV chassis steel is thicker gauge than that in the S. So it would need to be totally replaced.
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,038
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #16153 miurasv, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
    Meant to say above that 3132, an early Miura, has a thin gauge steel P400 chassis and bonnet, not a P400S. This 10 minute edit window is ridiculous. The gauge of steel in 3132 will be even thinner than that of a P400S, let alone a P400SV. The chassis and/or the suspension may may have some SV mods but it can't be rebuilt to full SV spec.
     
  4. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    Agreed, exactly

    Correct, besides that, it's still chassis number 3132, a P400.

    If you have had the benefit of carefully inspecting a fair number of genuine factory SVs as a point of reference, you can tell this car has not had the SV chassis upgrade with wider SV wishbone mounting points just by looking at it's rear stance and noting the way the wheels & tires sit within the rear wheel wells.

    It may have indeed had some work done at the factory, but as it exists today, it is not an SV both materially and in terms of it's identification, representing it as such is a stretch.

    In recent times we have come to appreciate the earlier variants, and so, I daresay this car would likely be most valuable fully restored as P400 3132 in it's original specification
     
    ken qv likes this.
  5. Lel

    Lel Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2007
    295
     
  6. Lel

    Lel Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2007
    295


    I thought that the only difference between the suspension on the P400/P400S and the SV are that the trailing arms on the early cars are from 350 GT and that they used the lower rear trailing arms from Islero S on the SV. And that wouldn't affect the track. Of course the SV has 7 1/2 and 9 inches wheels compared to the 7 inches whells on 400/400S

    And why wouldn't a SV bonnet fit a normal or S Miura?

    L-E
     
  7. Lel

    Lel Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2007
    295

    I just took a lock on my S with SV wheels at the back. and admit that you are right. There must be something that I have missed. It doesn't look at all as wide as a SV.
    Have to check out what differs in the suspension more than the lower wishbone.

    L-E
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,038
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    The box sections of the chassis are thicker on the SV. A non SV bonnet will not close down on a SV.
     
  9. bb4635

    bb4635 Formula Junior

    May 18, 2006
    480
    France
    Hi Lel,

    The rear track width difference between a Miura P400 or P400S & a SV is 5" : 1412mm vs 1541mm.

    4" are in the wheels themselves where the 9" SV rear rims are 2" wider than the original 7" Miura wheels. And these 2 more inches are 100% on the outside.

    The remaining inch of the overall tack increase is coming from the revised lower suspension arms (based on the Islero / Espada design) . They are 1/2 longer (per side) than the original Miura A-shape lower arms.

    The rear upper suspension arms are always the same on a Miura, from an early P400 up to the last SVs : so, on the SV chassis, the fixing brackets for these rear upper suspension arms are externally moved of 1/2 inch, on each side of the chassis frame.

    Hope this helps !
     
    wbaeumer likes this.
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    Well-stated Bruno.

    All this is discussed in quite some detail both in this thread and my Miura book.
     
  11. bb4635

    bb4635 Formula Junior

    May 18, 2006
    480
    France
    Yes Joe,
    But, even if I personally have your Miura book in both English & French edition, I imagine that it's not the case of all the guys here on this forum.
    And nowadays, in 2018, with more than 16000 posts on this (great) Miura thread, it's not really easy to find a specific technical information, assuming it has been already discussed here...
     
  12. Lel

    Lel Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2007
    295

    Thanks,

    so 12,5 mm extended brackets and a couple of Islero/Espada lower suspension arms are the only important difference between a 400 and a SV.

    And a million dollars/euros.

    About the bodywork I still do think that the SV bonnet fits an older Miura, and vice versa.

    L-E
     
  13. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    Good points.

    In addition to a Miura thread or a Miura book, actual hands-on experience with Miura SVs can be invaluable

    If those items are the "only important difference", just to be sure, why don't you throw a couple suspension brackets & Islero/Espada wishbones on a P400, then run it through an auction, and see if you get the extra million bucks?

    Also, have you actually placed a P400 next to an SV and then swapped hoods to see if they fit?
     
  14. Lel

    Lel Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2007
    295

    No, have you?

    L-E
     
  15. Lel

    Lel Formula Junior

    Oct 11, 2007
    295
     
  16. JonathanElstein

    JonathanElstein Karting

    Oct 19, 2010
    149
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Jonathan Elstein
    On a different note, I have a shed full of Italian car parts that I want to sell. I think some of them are suitable for a Miura but I am no expert so please make up your own mind. The full advert is here:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/lots-of-italian-car-parts.571939

    To emphasise, while I believe the items are all original, I can't say for certain whether they are correct original equipment for any specific model or make. Moreover, as most of you know better than me, there were lots of reproduction items made, coupled to which even the original toolkits came in lots of varieties and weren't even made by Lamborghini themselves. So please check carefully before making an offer. The items are in central London, England if you want to inspect anything in person.

    If you're interested in any item please PM me and I can let you know the asking price and send more photos. I'm open to reasonable offers for any item or for the whole lot. I'm happy to send by recorded delivery free anywhere in the world.

    Thanks!

    Jonathan
     
    joe sackey likes this.
  17. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    Yes, and I confess I asked you the question knowing from your comments that you haven't tried this.

    They don't fit.

    This is especially the case when you place an earlier variant hood on an SV, closing it becomes problematic as already pointed out by Steven. I believe the problems were fitment issues at the lynch-pin hinges and clearance at the inner wheel wells. Of course anything can be modified to work at not inconsiderable time & expense plus somewhat irreversible sacrifice to originality.

    That said, the SV hoods fit the earlier cars with less modifications, and that's why by the 80's the only spare units the factory stocked were SV units. Consequently, there are a number of earlier cars running around with SV hoods.

    Values delta aside (I'll leave that one for the market to determine), it's important to realize that the SV was a factory-developed, engineered and purpose-built ultimate Miura, with improvements to the car's chassis, suspension, wheels, bodywork, engine compression & carburetors, transmission lubrication, lights, etc. It's more than just a few components and a badge, and, as we know from other makes, the ultimate version of an already-desired sports car can command a big premium. Perhaps that premium should be less, but it is what it is
     
    Gmaccormack likes this.
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    vfinaldi likes this.
  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
  21. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    4,807
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    joe sackey likes this.
  22. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,828
    joe sackey likes this.
  23. BBoyJmE

    BBoyJmE Formula Junior

    Jan 26, 2015
    272
    Sydney, Australia
    Full Name:
    Jimmy Nahlous
    How sexy and low does that Miura look going around that track, man what a great looking car!
     
  24. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,330
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    That made me laugh!

    On that instance, the track event was just one stage of the Tour Auto which 4878 completed, highly commendable for a Miura, in fact I know of @ 5 SVs that have completed that rally, plus some P400 and P400S as well.

    As with all cars, if thoroughly sorted, Miuras are usable, I remember taking our SV 5064 on a Club Rally some 15 years ago, it was just @ 750 miles, but it ran flawlessly.

    Speaking of 5064, here it is below in the October 2003 issue of European Car magazine

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. bb4635

    bb4635 Formula Junior

    May 18, 2006
    480
    France
    Hi Joe,

    I'm very interested of your 5 Miura SV having completed the French Tour-Auto Rally !

    On my side, I've also identified several Miura having been listed for this Rally over the years : cars simply registerered but potentially never participating, others participating but "did not finished", or the ones with a rally finally / fully completed.

    I personally have factually identified 9 Miura registered for this French Rally (Original-Period in the 70's or re-edition in the 90's) : 2x Miura P400, 4x Miura P400S (including one with 4 participations), & 3x Miura P400SV.

    So I'm very curious of your 2 additional Miura SV when you mention 5 Miura SV in this Rally and that I have only identified 3 of them ! based on my daya-files that I'd consider to be 100% accurate and exhaustive...

    Also, in case there is any interest in this topic of this focused local French Classic Car Rally, I'd be pleased to post some pictures of the concerned Miuras.

    Bruno
     

Share This Page