Mobil 1 extended drain interval

OK, so I just made a long new message and as I was moving the mouse to Submit New Thread the computer locked. So here's cut & paste from another forum:

For those that might care, I got an oil analysis done on my car.
I had it done through http://members.rennlist.com/oil/ Larry there really took good care of me, sending me the results electronically right away and providing assistance. It was less than 2 weeks since I ordered the kit, and 1 week to the day since I dropped my sample in the mail. It cost $30 shipped for 1 analysis including TBN. The kit includes a prepaid shipper to get your analysis to the lab.
Here are the results:
1992 MB 190E 2.3, 95000 miles, 3800 miles since last change (MB severe service schedule recommendation)
Quaker State 10W40 with STP, typical urban driving (mixed city/highway) vs. Mobil 1 0W-40 and Mobil 1 filter (filter wasn't changed, either). About 3 quarts of makeup oil as I recall.

3800 Miles Dino___8000 Miles Mobil 1___11000 M1
_______________________________________________
Iron 4____________14 _________________12
Chromium 1______4 __________________4
Nickel <1_________<1 _________________<1
Aluminum 5_______6 __________________6
lead 2____________18 _________________18
Copper 5_________7 ___________________8
Tin <1____________<1 _________________<1
Silver <.1_________<.1 _________________<1
Titanium <1_______<1 _________________<1
Silicon 7___________8 __________________8
Boron 7____________120________________107 Coolant & oil additive
Sodium 6__________19 ________________18 Coolant & oil additive
Potassium <10_____12 ________________17 Coolant additive
Molybdenum 62____68 ________________61 Ring wear & sometimes oil additive
Phosphorus 833____1001______________802 Oil additive
Zinc 971___________1071______________924 Oil additive
Calcium 693_______2782 ______________2413 Indicator of dispersants, detergents
Barium <10________<10 _______________<10
Magnesium 7_______24 _______________23Dispersant, Detergent, alloying metal
Antimony <30_______<30 _____________<30
Vanadium <1_______1 _________________1
Fuel %Vol 3.5_______2 ________________4
Abs Oxid 3__________5 ________________38
Abs Nitr 12__________7 ________________17
Wtr %vol <.1________<.1 _____________<.1
Vis CS 100C 12.8____13.2 _____________12.7
SAE Grade 40________40 ______________40
Gly test NEG_________NEG _____________NEG
TBN 2.97____________5.05 ____________4.38

It's interesting to note the changes in levels of oil additives between the mineral oil and the Mobil 1. As they reported as the 8000 mile sample, "ANALYSIS INDICATES COMPONENT & LUBRICANT CONDITIONS WERE ACCEPTABLE." This is after 11,000 miles in 53 weeks.

Not sure why the wear metals Iron, Chromium and Lead are elevated with the Mobil 1, but holding constant through usage. Also note the reduction in TBN (ability to absorb combustion acid), but improvement still relative to the dino oil. It also looks like you can see the additives being used up (where do these elements go?) with some of those additive numbers decreasing, and the oil showing its age with the increase in oxidation.

So phooey to anyone that says you shoud only use Amsoil for extended drain intervals because they're the only ones that advertise it!

 

Here's some TRULY fascinating stuff about Mobil 1 and extended drain intervals! Take note of the 3rd bullet point near the top of the page...
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

These people are really putting synthetic oils to the extended interval test!

 

I'm between 5000-8000 miles on M1 between two different BMW's. I'm (reluctantly) allowing the service lights to dictate my oil changes.

2001 525it - 5200miles so far, "one light" still green
2001 740i - 7500miles so far, "one light" still green

Both cars are about 95% highway miles as both wife and I commute 30 miles each direction daily.


-Daniel

 

Good thread. I change my Mobil one between 3500 and 4000 miles because my C5 Corvette computer indicates to so. (it is based on rpm, number of starts and other items and runs down from 100% to 0%-change oil now).

I have been told that 10,000 miles changes (with an oil filter at 5000) with Redline works well and I believe this and the reports in this thread indicate that can be true.

Now my question,

As the oil ages it turns black from, I believe, carbon from the exhaust gases. Therefore, I CONCLUDE oil is removing git and dirt from the engine as it ages.

My BELIEF is that this blackness is course and wear the aluminum parts and all.

I would like to read more information about the above assumptions. Anyone else concur/ do the reports indicate this color change effect?

 

New Porsche, 997 has an oil change interval of 2 years/20K miles, and my 996 has an interval of 18 months and 15K miles and the only oil they recommend is M1 0W-40.
It's hard to ignore the dash light indicators on BMWs or even GM cars even though you put M1 in the engine. If for any reason anything goes wrong with the engine then the burdon of proof would be on the owner why the oil service indictors were ignored.

 

What about filter changes?

 

These results are not surprising....BMW has been recommending 15k miles oil/filter intervals for several years now. This is with the "BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil" (oem manufactured by Castrol) in grade 5w-30 for my 540. I saw over on one of the BMW lists that some guys had an oil analysis done at 15k miles just to see. With perhaps 1 quart additional oil added during the interval, the oil was reaching it's limit (it was used up) but not particularly bad. Meaning it was ready to be changed, but nothing was at the extreme in numbers, where a 15k interval would be out of the question (note that an oil change on a 540 requires 8 or 9 quarts). Obviously the manufacturers have thoroughly tested this before recommending extended change intervals. I still change my oil on the BMW at 7500 miles, for no other reason than it makes me feel good.

I think my 355 manual says 15k oil change intervals as well, but I will change much more frequently than that...probably no more than 5k.

Dave

 

There is no mention of filter change any time sooner than when the oil change is recomended. They do however treat the low miles Porsche differently, ones with 9k miles or less, at least in my book (996).

 

I change the oil in my M5 evry 5k miles with the recommended Castrol RS 10w60.

 

I am not sure if any of you know this, but apparently the German government is behind pushing the car makers for longer drain intervals. I have even heard claims that new German cars sold in Germany have no drain plug as they dont want the owner to service the car.
As far as extending oil change intervals, I personally know only one person who has faithfully gone 25,000 on M1 between changes on all of his cars including MB diesels and BMW diesels. And not one of his cars has exceeded 75,000 miles without major cylinder head work.
I will continue to follow aviation guidlines and change at the equivalent of 25 to 50 hours no matter what oil is in the crankcase, until the FAA and major aircraft engine manufacturers change thier guidlines. When I pull out my dipstick at 2500 miles I want to see clean oil, not black oil. But then I am just old fashioned and like clean engines. Some would ask what an airplane engine has in common with a car engine. Its all the same materials, and the running clearances are all the same. An engine is an engine is an engine basically. Heck, there was even a Porsche powered Mooney years back.

 

It's your option in this country, use guidelines from the '50s based on the technology of the time or let the data speak for itself.
Are you serious about 50 hours? That's got to be a joke, at 27 mph average speed, that's 1350 miles! I guess that explains why you see clean oil at 2500 miles? Because you're on your 2nd change??? That borders on environmentally irresponsible, and certainly means a lot more time changing oil than I'm inclined to spend!

 

Krowbar,

The tolerances in aircraft are totally different. The aircraft engine has no wear NEAR the tight tolerances as a F car or really any high line sports car. The compression in a Lycoming engine is about 60-70 while my 355 runs from 215-230. An aircraft engine is "loose" by design. Since it is air cooled and makes atmospheric changes on a minute to minute basis, therefore lies the engineering behind the engine. I own a Dakota and Chieftain. The biggest worry I have is time. I change oil every 6 months irregardless of engine time because of moisture and acids building in the oil. Checkout Lycomings website, the truly have wonderful data on oil. Look at oil viscosities in Aviation. Many people use Shell 100W Plus which is a straight 50 weight. Could you imagine the oil pressure in a F car at that rate. It would run a pop off 1/2 the time. I use the Shell synthetic because I truly believes it protects my aviation engines better and has better viscosity range. Maybe this helped??? I change(d) oil in my F cars every 3k miles or 3 times every 2 years. It's cheap enough for such protection plus I just don't drive the car enough.

 

Aside from all the stuff that 355flyer refers which I am not familiar with I guess also 50 hours in an airplane engine may take some time to happen. Plus the average speed and equivalant miles covered are much much more than what a car can cover.

By the way, I have almost 40k miles on my Porsche and have stuck with factory recommended M1 oil change intervals. The engine oil as you would expect is very clear on the dip stick after the oil change.

 

Diesel engines have hugh problems with soot and blow-by products accumulating. Oil thickening is a serious problem. I find it hard to believe you can go 25,000 miles for oil changes. If you started with a thicker oil than spec'd you would get into trouble quickly. For example, if they wanted you to use a 40 weight oil but you thought a 50 would be better, that would certainly kill the engine from thickening.

aehaas

 

50 hrs would equal approx. 7500-9000 miles. My oil is just starting to get too dirty at that time.

 

First of all, I don't have any problem with synthetic oil, its good stuff. But its not light years better. I flew a Cessna 172 with over 3000 hours on the engine and it ran great, never had a drop of synthetic in its entire life. Seen engines we took apart for overhaul, and very few ever ran synthetic, and they were very clean inside with very minimal wear. Generally the rings wear and lose tension and there goes your oil consumption! Mercedes Benz, probably the world leader as far as engine durability, have had litteraly thousands of cars break 500,000 miles on conventional oil with regular oil changes. Where synthetic pays off is in turbos and on cold starts, but it doesnt lubricate any better that conventional oil by and large.
But now changing oil frequently is environmentaly irresponsible? So now we have the greenpeace Porsche driver telling us when to change oil? Perhaps you should buy an electric car and charge your batteries off the coal powered electric grid. Then you can put a green sticker on the bumper saying powered by coal? You may not know where used oil goes but I do. The oil companies burn it to boil down the crude oil. If they didnt use drain oil they would just use something else. So use it or don't, its your choice, but they will burn something BTU for BTU either way, and engine oil has a lot of BTU's when it burns, so its probably better than some other oils they could use.
As far as aircraft engines having different tolerances, yes and no. Go read manuals on any engine you want (cars and light trucks, not ship engines) going back 60 years, they about all have .0005" inch for new running oil clearance on main and rod bearings, and at around .003" about any engine you want to pick is considered worn out. Valve to guide clearances are all about the same, cam bearing clearances, wrist pin clearances, your F car is just as tight or loose as a 38 Buick flathead straight 8. Remember, I said "clearances, not engineering or materials! Where the differences lie between a large air cooled aircraft engine and a small liquid cooled one, is piston clearance. Lots looser in that airplane when its cold, but at operating temp they equal out to about the same. You dont want that piston to be slapping around. Thats also one of the main reasons they call for 50 weight oil in aircraft. High viscosity oil keeps parts from slamming into each other, like a piston skirt slapping the wall.
50 hours is fairly common for industrial engines, because they work so hard, usually above 50% power settings. But as most are generally double sized in displacement, in reality they arent working so hard. Your basic 100 HP lycoming is a 200 cubic inch motor, loafing along under 3000 rpm. Your 300 HP F car is under 200 cubic inch. Hmmmmm, wonder which one works harder? Which one sees higher rpm? Which one sees long periods idling in traffic? Which one is closer to the ground exposed to dust and dirt? Every owners manual I have ever read said to disregard recommended oil change intervals in harsh conditions. Now read what they consider harsh conditions. I dont think there is any place or any time that is NOT harsh. If you figure an average speed of 50 mph, 50 hours works out to 2500 miles.
The last thing is, burning all that junk in your engine creates acids. Acids that corrode engine bearings and aluminum. Then you have all that condensation. Two years and 20 thou without an oil change? In a $10000 engine? I would consider that abuse. And I would bet Porsche would refer to thier "harsh conditions clause" and void the warranty on a lubrictaion failure.

 

I think you should argue the synthetic vs. mineral oils and your findings with Ali on a different thread. I am not an expert but when I read his threads I saw some fundamental differences like forming paraffin, and lack of additives in the mineral oil to make me think twice using those in any of my cars. Oil companies and engine manufacturers recommend synthetic oil and extended maintenance while they are fully aware of the consequences of wear and tear with broken down oil in the engine.

Someone who dishes out $75+K to purchase a Porsche does not worry about $200 oil change cost. I am sure Porsche is aware of that and would make the owner to change engine oil more frequently if they saw field data that suggested premature wear and tear. Instead in the upcoming model they extended the oil change interval to two years and 20K miles, go figure... And since it is difficult to produce the type of data an engine manufacturer can obtain and produce it is irrelevant to argue against it, unless one can show a statistically significant population and show the test of hypothesis to accept or reject the above. It is difficult for me to accept all the MB data unless you can show conditions and if the results are statistically acceptable.

 

Boy, you know, many of the car makers started touting 50, 75, now 100K mile tune ups. You know how many spark plugs get twisted off in engines after they been in there that long?
Anyway, I've talked to people in Germany as well as people from Germany, people who live here in the US now, and i've heard some of the wierdo stuff going on. The government is behind these extended change intervals and they are forcing the automakers to comply.
Just like GM, when they went to 5W30 motor oil. They did it only for better fuel economy to meet CAFE standards. If they could gain a quarter mile per gallon, computed over a million cars it brought up their overall average so they could sell more trucks.
But $200 for an oil change? Are you serious? I seen the MB dealer wanted $79 and I just laughed. I am sorry but I change my own oil and my son does the same. I taught him. Its a 10 minute job at most. But I suppose if you leave it in there for two years your saving money on oil.
I had a MB 300E I picked up that had 167,000 miles, all reciepts back to new, one owner car. He had dealer change oil at 7500 miles its whole life. But when I took it it used a quart every 300 miles. Three changes of oil, and it didnt use oil anymore. I just never added. When it dropped a quart, I changed it. 300 miles, 700 miles, 1700 miles, and 2500 -3000 after and it never used a quart. Sold it with 198,000 and it ran so sweet, still not using any oil. Those rings just needed some clean oil and detergent to make them work again.
Read some old issues of the STAR, they always talked about oil.

 

$200 is not unheard of...
The 993 Porsche uses 2 oil filters and you have to remove some covers to get at them..It also uses 11 quarts of oil at chnage and a pricey German filter...It aint no Chevy 350.

 

krowbar, the cost for the quarts needed 10w60 for my M5 and 5w50 for my BB512i cost more than $79!

 

$79 out of $200 still leaves $121 for 10 minutes labor. Maybe I am in the wrong buisness?

I guess I am sorry I said anything, Its just like the GM thing and thier 5W30 oil deal and 100K mile plug changes, they got everyone convinced. You want to put 20K on your engine with the same oil, go ahead. But as long as your being so sure of yourself, you make sure you tell the new owner about it, okay? Funny people selling cars always leave that part out. Oh buy the way, I changed oil at every factory recomended interval, 5 times in 100K miles.

But someone asked about the lead content being high with the M1 oil at the high mileage, well, the only parts inside the engine that consistently use lead are the engine bearings. And that is the only part. There sure aint no lead in the fuel, so maybe your extended oil change is retaining enough acid to eat your bearings? Whats that abs oxide3 stuff thats so high? Whatever, you guys have fun, let us know how they run at 150K.

 

I'll do that... Should be in about 4 years. That will likely be after a gasket set replacement, as others with a lot of oil analysis under their belts have indicated that the increasing Potassium numbers generally come before a head gasket replacement (with increased wear metals, how bout that!). I'm just glad I didn't count on any of the resident old school ogres in this forum to decipher anything in there.
While the increase I saw in 3 wear metals was large in magnitude, the numbers are not anywhere near the level that is at all indicative of excessive wear occurring and as you'll note if you go back to the original post, they stayed constant from 8000-11000 miles.
I'm not saying there's anything much wrong with changing your oil at 3000-5000 miles (but not every 1350). (Although it IS a proven fact that most engine wear occurs earlier rather than later in an oil's life. Yes, I know that you can't rectify that with common sense, but if you make me I can dig up the SAE paper number so you can read all about it for yourself.) Lots of cars have gone a long time like that. But lots of accountants managed millions of dollars with pencil and paper, too, yet technology has advanced and made dramatic changes to the way that's done. Technological advances make new things possible that aren't the way they've always been done. There's the point.

P.S-I am curious about what GM convinced us all of with 5W-30 oil? That thin oils are OK? That not having a 10W or 20W oil on your cold start is OK? Of course that's just been discussed and analyzed to death in AEHaas' Motor Oil 201 thread, but if it's something different, I'd love to hear what we've been convinced of.

 

Even those who suck the oil up through the dispenser would spend more time than 10 min on an oil change. But time elapsed is beside the point. Modern shops have more expense than just paying for the labor. Unless you are moonlighting and have no expense for rent, waste, electricity, amortization of your equipment, and someone scheduling and doing your book keeping and insurance and liability, etc... I don't know why as a consumer I stand up for mechanics maybe I understand it is not just a simple pay off for a 10 minute labor... A great deal of time service centers practically give away oil changes so they can get other repairs from consumers.

I am an engineer and make decisions based on data, not because of a conspiracy theory in Germany. Please bring data with your claims; if there is no data there is no argument.

 

Since you may not be familiar with all the terms used in the lubrication world, and I neglected to put a link to a dictionary for these things (I did when I posted it elsewhere, just didn't happen here), TBN is Total Base Number; a measure of the oil's ability to absorb acids from combustion. You'll note that at 11,000 miles the Mobil 1 has a higher TBN than the conventional oil at 3800 (once again, this is the factory recommended severe service schedule). "Acid neutralized"! The increase in oxidation number indicates... you guessed it, the oil's getting used up! This level wasn't flagged as a cause for concern.