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Modern Electrical Fans for the 308

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by dan the man, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. dan the man

    dan the man Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    146
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Daniel
    All,

    I have had an uphill battle with cooling issues on my 308 sense I bought it in 2002. THe cooling fans have never been enough. They also have never worked at full force due to age and bad brushes.

    There for I finally broke down and designed a solution. This system has two high flow (500 cfm rating each next to the radiator, 650 cfm rating open) 10" fans mounted in front of the AC condensor. NO DRILLING, NO perminate modifications.

    I installed it by removing the radiator and ac condensor, but think it would be allot easier if the front spoiler was removed instead.

    where my 308 used to cook at 230 and up in traffic, now it stays round the 195 mark, and when the air is cool, it is some where around 180 ish.

    They are loud, but I could hear the original fans (when they worked) almost as much.

    Just thought you would like to know, we have options!!!

    Dan
     
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  3. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,000
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    How about posting pictures & installatin details.
     
  4. dan the man

    dan the man Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    146
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Daniel
    also,

    I cannot really hear them when I am driving the car. People near the front of the car can hear them.

    The shroud/fan housing that I designed is cut out of aluminum. I chose not to paint it. The weight is a trade with the fans if not a little less. They are tight going in, (the radiator is out when the fans are set in, the shroud is bolted to the radiator/condensor and put into the car, then the fans are bolted to the shroud) but clear everything. I am running direct fused power from the battery utilizing a relay and switching it with the original fan power wire. Again, no mods, I did not even cut the original fan wire end to change it out. I just used a bullet contact for the relay wire. Completely reversable for the hard core guys.

    And for those of you who don't know, I drive my 308 as my main car, just about everyday, and have clocked almost 40,000 miles sense I bought it in 2002, and this includes down time when the sodium filled exhaust valve broke at 8000 RPMs and took the engine out.

    Dan
     
  5. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,075
    Southeast USA
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    Mike Charness
    #5 Mike C, Sep 23, 2005
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  7. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,075
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    Mike Charness
    #6 Mike C, Sep 23, 2005
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  8. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

    Nov 17, 2003
    4,133
    Austin, TX USA
    Full Name:
    Greg
    I did the Hayden 12"s also, but I had to remove the front valance to install them. I don't see any other way!

    I had to trim the lower part of the plastic fan shroud to clear the valance--Dremel cutting wheel worked great. I mounted the bottom of the fans to the A/C condensor lower bracket. I had to remove the radiator/A/C condensor assembly, so I could separate them. This allowed me to use the plastic push rods to secure the fans to the radiator. Be careful to NOT force them into a cooling tube within the radiator!!!!

    These fans move plenty air, and my temp never goes beyond 193? or so.
    Oy yeah, the reason I changed my old fans out: I traced the old fans as a source of excessive amp pull on my electrical system. The previous owner had installed some '80s-vintage Bosch fans, and they weren't very efficient.
    Greg
    1977 308 GTB
     
  9. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Dan, changing the subject slightly, can you tell us about the demise of the sodium filled valves. Maybe start a new thread. This is a subject a bit like the eternal belt threads. We know they are dangerous but it is very rare to find someone that has actually (himself) had them fail. Was it really 8000 rpm for example?? Thanks in advance..
     
  10. fmaderi

    fmaderi Formula Junior

    May 8, 2005
    254
    clearwater Fla/NY
    Full Name:
    frank maderi
    just replace old lucas w/#1985 mr gasket fan that flows 900+cfm it took me about -4hours in the garage and out to install they cost $100 each i did it with condenser/radiator inplace.its a quiet fan.i really would have liked to have used puller fans but ran out of resources.it was great to here someone else ran there car to 8k. here's one for a new thread how high do you rev your v8.
     
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  12. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    David Jones
    #10 Dave, Sep 23, 2005
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  13. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    #11 Dave, Sep 23, 2005
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  14. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    #12 Dave, Sep 23, 2005
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  15. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    #13 Dave, Sep 23, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The problem with the new radiator was that it was too deep with the puller fans installed behind the unit.
    So I had to remove the fiberglass spare tire tub to install the radiator.

    Since that time, I have modified the tub by cutting the front off with an air tool, and then using fiberglass matt to replace the area which was cut out.
    In this shot, you can see an example of how the new glasswork will fill in the hole.
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  16. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
    2,722
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    David Jones
    #14 Dave, Sep 23, 2005
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  17. dan the man

    dan the man Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    146
    Alabama
    Full Name:
    Daniel
    Sorry to be so late getting back to you guys, but this is the first time I have had to check the thread.

    I did not want to use the "zip cords" that came with the fans. I also wanted to isolate the fans completely from rubbing any part of the condenser. I also had access to a water jet machine.

    As far as the valve goes. Yes, it was at 8000 rpms. I was driving to work and was winding out 3rd gear. ran out to the 8000 mark and as I shifted a large noise rang out, and then major loss of power and bellows of smoke. I cut the car off, and coasted into a parking lot.

    Towed the car, and pulled the air box only to find large amounts of metal shavings and pieces. I thought at first that the intake valve had stuck open. when I finally got the engine tore down it was a piece of the piston ring that jammed the intake valve open. The largest piece of the piston left was about the size of my thumb.

    It completely destroyed the piston, I could not have done a better job with TNT. The rod still had the wrist pin in it, with none of the piston left. the wrist pin knocked two holes through the cylinder sleeve, one inboard and one outboard where it beat the cylinder at 8000 rpms to off, and cracked the rest of the clinder sleeve. The holes were the width of the wrist pin, by about 3 inches. the head looked like someone took a fine tipped jack hammer to it.

    Pieces of the piston and cylinder sleeve went down into the crank case and was knocked all around by the rods like a pinball machine. the cylinder directly across was chipped at the base by these pieces.

    Surprisingly enough the block faired out well. I could not find any cracks in the block itself although the cylinder sleeves were damaged. the cylinder sleeve seal land in the block was beaten by the wrist pin when the rod/pin slammed back and forth, but it is repairable.

    The head was trash. the crank and other rods are good, with the exception of the rod for that cylinder, and the corresponding rod on the crank due to the pieces hit it the hardest.

    Of course the forward head was fine.

    No belts broke, nothing else happened, the valve simply broke off where the head transitions into the valve shaft.

    I was regularly reving this engine out to 8000 rpms. I was not aware of the sodium filled valve issue. This was an expensive lesson. I ended up finding a burned engine on the internet, tore it down to the short block, reworked the heads, (which had a couple of broken Sodium filled valves in them from the fire. the engine was fine as far as the short block went, but the heat from the fire caused these valves to break. interesting fact) and used all of my external parts.

    I did have an issue with the first machine shop head work that led to a cam seizing in the head journals and causing bent valves. this happened about 20 to 30 seconds after I started the fresh engine. It was an expensive back track. I had asked them to check the cam journals for clearance, the heads were in a fire of course, and thus the journals can close up. they said they checked them, but they did not. the journals were a little too tight, and it did major journal damage. This ruined the head. Fortunately for me it was the forward head that seized first, thus I was able to use my original head. A second machine shop correctly worked both heads and the second time was good.

    I did successfully remove the heads in the car without having to remove the engine again. The flip to this was that with the original engine I had to beat the heads off the engine. I even hung the Engine by the head and used a chemical that the aircraft industry uses to free up the heads from the studs in piston engines when they are rebuilt. This did not work. It took days, several days to get the heads off.


    I would suggest that anyone that drives their 308 daily or hard with these valves go through the pain of pulling the heads, and replacing the valves with Stainless steel valves.

    once again, I am reving my engine out, but now it seldom hits the 8000 mark. I feel better shifting about 7500 now. But, as time goes on, I am reving higher.
     
  18. silvergts

    silvergts Rookie

    Dec 12, 2005
    12
    #16 silvergts, Aug 14, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    My sincere appreciation goes to Mike Charness, Dan the Man, and David Jones for posting their suggestions for replacing OEM cooling fans on their 308s to solve the overheating problem. My car would stay below 190˚F until it was in slow traffic or stopped at a traffic light; then the temperature rose to 220˚F and it would spit coolant. The fans were operating to factory specifications (drawing ~5 amps), the radiator was in good condition, the factory foam around the radiator and condenser was intact, there were no leaks in the cooling system, the thermostat, fan temperature switches and radiator caps (both 0.9 and 1.1) were in good order - and air was bled out of the system.

    Installing the two Hayden 12", 800 CFM fans (Model 3680) suggested by Mike Charness, completely solved the problem. Installation was fairly simple, requiring removal of the front grill (four screws and two bolts), bumper (four nuts and disconnect turn light wiring), horn (one bolt), and the OEM fans (unbolting and spreading open each OEM bracket.) Neither the radiator-AC condenser nor hood need to be loosened because the thin Hayden fan profile allowed the fans to slip between the condenser and OEM fan mounting brackets.

    Hayden recommends installing the fan mounts that it supplies (long plastic or steel fasteners with button ends) through either the condenser or the radiator but cautions against installing the mounts through both units. Also, because of concern that rubbing might occur between the fan and the condenser when the car was driven hard, I made a simple tube mount using:
    • two 1.825 inch long sections of 3.0 inch diameter vehicle exhaust tube;
    • three slotted electric box fixture mounting brackets (each cut in half to yield six slotted brackets); and
    • twelve 4 mm (D) x 0.7 pitch x 25 mm (L) hex head bolts, lock washers, and nuts.
    The idea was not to require drilling any new holes in the 308 or make any modification to the OEM fan mounting brackets.

    To make the new fan mounting tube:
    1. bend each slotted bracket 90 degrees, approximately 10 mm from its end;
    2. temporarily attach slotted brackets to predrilled holes on the Hayden fan shroud;
    3. mark the tube mount where the three edges of the bracket edges intersect it;
    4. drill 4 mm diameter holes in the tube mount at the center of these marks;
    5. mark the slotted brackets through the drilled holes on the mounting tube and drill a hole in each bracket where they can be bolted to the tube.

    As noted above, the Hayden fan has three holes in the shroud that permit insertion of a small bolt that can be fastened to the slotted bracket of the new tube mount. However, first the spring lock washer that holds the fan blade to the Hayden motor needs to be removed. This allows the head of the three bolts to be located on the interior of the fan shroud so that the slotted brackets on the tube can be bolted to it.

    It is also necessary to transfer the black “rubber band” shock absorber from the OEM fan to the new tube mount to get a secure fit in the OEM fan bracket.

    Finally, adjust the distance between the fan shroud and the condenser to be to be approximately 1/8” to 1/4” around the entire perimeter. (If your 308 OEM mounting bracket is not square to the condenser, carefully bend the three mounting brackets on the tube mount before you secure the hex head nuts to the ends of the bolts you installed on the fan. )

    Photos attached.
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  19. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,366
    NY
    Great idea and if I ever start having a overheating problem I'll consider using it. Meanwhile the OEM works great and very rarely do both fans turn on. I think with the AC on the 1 fan is sufficent enough. Also a good check is to look at your oil temp and see if its the same as the water temp. Both gages can't be out.
     
  20. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    I posted the info on the Lucas replacement unit for the early 1977, in the 308 Parts thread.

    Same as Jaguar XKE V12....$142 plus tax and shipping......

    The newer fans do move more air, if you need to offset other maladies though.....
     
  21. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,439
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter
    True, most of these radiators are twenty-five plus years old. The people that own these cars now often keep them better than the people who owned them between the original owner and them. The current owners also drive them more. In servicing hundreds of Alfa Romeo Spiders, I have seen people put aftermarket fans on, replace thermostats, shrouds, head gaskets and what was really wrong was solder bloom clogging up the radiator core.

    Might want to check the flow rate of the radiator before going through the travails of the aftermarket fans. I noticed Ted Rutland's got a deal on fan motors right now...

    -Peter (Alfas have had sodium filled exhaust valves since 1972, I rev the four cylinder 2-liter race engines with OE valves routinely to 8000rpm without difficulty. Perhaps the exhaust valves touched before thy broke off?)
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,136
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Yea, we threw the radiator away FIRST! LOL!
     
  23. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
    4,629
    Full Name:
    Dave Helms
    -Peter (Alfas have had sodium filled exhaust valves since 1972, I rev the four cylinder 2-liter race engines with OE valves routinely to 8000rpm without difficulty. Perhaps the exhaust valves touched before thy broke off?)[/QUOTE]


    Nothing touched on the one I have in the shop. The belts held timing throughout the destruction process. No piston to be found.
    I have heard of this in the past but it is the first "hands on" failure I have dealt with of this nature. I will be doing a complete failure analysis to determine the exact cause but it sure appears to be from a clean separation of the valve head from the stem based on what I can see with the bore scope.
    I have had numerous 250 and 330 engines drop a valve seat causing the valve head to break off, but there are no signs of this type of failure. With Ball Aerospace and Lockheed Martin just down the road from the shop (there is more than one Ferrari in the parking lots there) there are plenty of interested engineers in the stress testing dept. wanting to know the answer to this question.

    Dave
     
  24. tifoso13

    tifoso13 Rookie

    May 3, 2004
    3
    Mokena Illinois
    Full Name:
    Ralph Bonanotte
    The valves do indeed get brittle. I dropped exhaust valve on cylinder four and two years later after a full rebuild I'm finally enjoing my car again. Did all the engine work myself but had the heads rebuilt with stainless valves, Indy springs-10,000rpm-and custom titanium keepers.
    A couple of the remaining exhaust valves were so brittle when droped from a foot or two the heads popped right off.
    Sodium filled valves are old World War II technology
     
  25. ham308

    ham308 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    358
    NE Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Richard Ham
    Mmmm, yeh, thanks for all the horror stories. Wish I'd never asked :)

    Richard, (highly original 77 308)
     
  26. Euro Quattro

    Euro Quattro Formula Junior

    Apr 20, 2005
    344
    Vancouver
    Full Name:
    Kent
    Does my 83 qv have sodium valves or just the early models? Im wondering if I should be worring about this since I like to rev mine up 8K every once in a while too.
     
  27. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    7,000
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Only the 2V engines had the sodium filled valves. If you search the Fchat archives, incl. the Old Fchat, you'll find quite a bit about the sodium filled valves. They're really fragile, & over-reving is a great way to break one loose.

    Dan's is one of the more dramatic/extensive damage cases reported. In the past there have been pix with the valve head either embedded in the piston, or else in the head. Also, there have been pix of a piston with a hole in the top where the valve heads escaped.
     
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