yes, there is a little more power using the GruppeM air intake system. I had a 5.2 F355 and we measured 10-12 +hp nearly all over the rpm range. Regards Andi
Here's mine, with the matching carbon trim plates (Powerspeed). Interesting that the resonator is still on the yellow car above (the empty black box driver's side just downstream from the MAF). Gruppe M says to remove that and cap it, at least now. My car is going for dyno tune next month. I don't know if the flow is that much better just slapping in the box, but that and higher flow through the cats gives the tuner something to take advantage of. I won't be able to compare apples to apples, but I will be able to say it makes x-hp as compared to a typical 355 or 360. Others who have been down this road (Competizione) have been very pleased. Image Unavailable, Please Login
On another note, Fernando at Competizione said they really do not see significant flow difference with aftermarket headers vs. the stock ones. Apparently the stock headers flow well, despite being made of what is probably inferior steel (but that is another pot of beans) and the heat shielding is excellent. Despite having near to 29,000 miles on my stock headers, he recommneded against changing them unless there was a leak. He said they are seeing gains with the new system they are creating through Gruppe M. It uses longer primaries that collect where the stock cats are. The longer primaries are where it is at. Obviously, you have to lose the cats, so that could be a problem for some. Because of all of that, it is a complete kit, expensive but comparable to replacing all the required bits anyway (headers, cats, Y-pipe, mufflers, tips... all of it). It is also just a prototype at this point, but I believe they are happy with what they have. There is a recent Hot Rod magazine (eh gads!) that did a comparison of different headers on the same high hp motor (700 ish). At that hp, the primary diameter made a flow difference. What I found intersting, was the LENGTH of the collector - where the primaries join to one - was very important. The longer the collector, the wider the rpm band that saw scavengingimprovements. With shorter collectors, the imrpovements from primary length or diameter was seen in a narrower rpm band. Of course, the 355 will be a little different due to the firing order of the flat plane.
360 modular wheels and I am sure the 360 standard wheels (if the same width as the modular wheels) do NOT fit a 355. The front do fit; however the back wheels stick past the wheel wells significantly and would be illegal in some states. Not to mention the appearance and stones that would constantly hit the car behind the wheel. Alot of folks claim they fit, but they do not.
Dave, is it OK to use Panzer technology on a Ferrari?? If not, all this testing has gone to waste. Any thoughts about a twin set-up?? Guess we would need to improve the ignition system, right?? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5U-grFuXZ9U&feature=related
Where would you mount the twin BBQ tanks? I dont think you could get enough flow out of a single regulator and a 100#er..... Yes, so long as it still involves coolant in a liquid state somewhere on the car...
Not being argumentative...just pointing out that the stock airboxes flow MORE than the stock airflow meter as it is. Therefore, if I was going to argue, I would state that your theory is proven invalid. Jay
You are absolutely right about using twin regulators. Since I have all that empty space in the engine bay I will be installing dual BBQ grilles along with the tanks in this area. I am going to install a 2way valve in each line which will allow me to grill some steaks and chickens while cruising. Additionally each grill and tank will be mounted on a roller cart for easy removal in case I want to BBQ in an area where the car cannot access. I may even make the pulse jets with quick disconnects so I can mount them on my boat for a little water excursion every now and then in case I get bored with driving and grilling.
Bruce and I discussed this last evening (frightful thought from which little good can come from) and there is only one angle I can see that makes sense. Under a ram air effect the volume of the larger boxes and tubing might assist BUT the lead in hose is still the restricted OEM and there is still the original restrictions of the MAS, all the piping behind it and those ribbed rubber hoses. If there is a higher flow from the entire system those hoses make sure to spoil it. The dyno's did not show any Ram effect so the HP gains are not from that source. There is a venturi effect that could be possible but the lead in hoses negate that possibility as far as I can see. That leaves only one thing I can see (other than the restriction of the paper filter) and have tested, heat absorption. The composite material with not absorb the heat the aluminum does and a dyno would over state the results of this due to stagnant air in the engine bay during runs resulting in heat soak. See where I was going with what I sent you Robbie? I just don't have back to back dyno numbers to prove the concept yet, I only have rudimentary temp readings and theory and cant prove anything until the ambient temps are high again next summer. It is also the reason I prototyped the flow through heat shield albeit on a set of bad headers where not much testing was available before replacement. The tests showed far better results than expected so I put a patent on the design and intend to follow it through as soon as I own a 355 that can be used as a test mule. Intake air density and temps are a fairly big factor and have been my focus for better than a year now, if you can feel it seat of the pants on a cool morning, thats one heck of an improvement. Its the reason behind the odd belly pan photo's I have posted in the past, I am cooling the intakes and pulling the header heat out of the engine bay. I can show it on lap times but it requires a better and more consistant driver than myself to prove it beyond any doubt and requires airflow that a dyno does not provide. I have designed muffler heat shields that continue all the way to the front engine bay firewall. They work well from temp readings but are ugly as hell in prototype form and I am now searching for a new composite team to help me with this. With these heat shields and the intake cooling ducts the Challange grill works properly, without them the grill creates far more problems than it helps by drawing header and brake heat directly across the air filter boxes. This led to a design that Robbie tested for me and is now having the bugs worked out on and will then be available. A new flow bench and dyno were in the plans for this winter but with the economy being what it is I am not sure that will happen as quick as I wanted. I may now have to out source some of the testing so I can follow this through to its end this winter. There are those that want power with no visual changes and those that do not mind changes. Systems have to be designed for both and for those who dont mind visual changes the sky's the limit. J. made some statements regarding the collector design which I am in complete agreement with. There IS power to be had there, no doubt in my mind. It might be in a fairly short RPM range but from the research I have done there is a fair gain to be had in the primary and collector design and I am happy this is being worked with by talented and capable folks. Dave
Dave, forget GruppeM, I have some really important stuff for you to critique. I need your input on my "Grocery Getter" version.... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncqp5B0mUUE&feature=related
I have got to build one of those! I may burn up the northern half of Colorado and have no idea what I would put it on, but I have to have one! That alone would send every horse within miles through the fence. Thinking about it, I did put wheels on a windsurfer when I was bored last winter and it was windy out. By the end of the driveway I was already scarred. If it has wheels...race it!
I sure as heck would rather it was the Weasel on the Windsurfer than me! He understands wings and now water... I will send you a photo of that man killer, Kris shook her head and closed the door behind her.
I would like to challenge ANYONE who owns a car with GruppeM air box ,or anyone who distributes or intalls them, to PROVE all of the alleged hp/torque gains. Considering that this modification retails for approx. $3400, what FACTUAL proof do/did you have that motivated you to purchase?????????????????? I have heard alot of claims and theories, but NO DYNO graphs....... WHY???????????? If it is all that it is claimed to be surely GruppeM or others would be taunting this to induce someone to purchase. I have already fallen into way too many bad purchases based on the hype produced by false claims, word of mouth, and marketing gimmicks......NO MORE for me, if it really works then prove it, or I am NOT BUYING period....... I DO NOT want my initial purchase of $3400 to turn into $10K+ because now I have to purchase a bunch of additional parts/service to get it to work properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any takers???????????
Bruce, my car was dynoed with the stock setup and the GruppeM. All else being the same it made 9HP more. I had the dyno sheets but threw them out because I changed my exhaust since then. The shop that did it put the GruppeM on for the heck of it just to it while the car was getting other work done. They said if the ECU was tuned properly it would gain a bit more....I personally saw the dyno sheets with my own eyes, but was not present during the dyno runs.... I consider this not much gain for the GruppeM, so maybe you should sell me yours. I am sure you could use the money for better things,...Who would want some nasty CF looking intake system...You know deep down you want to send it to Maryland!!
Threw them out ??? I always keep any and every dyno sheet. The are just as important as service records IMO ...... Here is a gruppem pic from xavior's 355: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Robbie, I would not want to be the one who is resposible for trashing your engine bay look with my CF intake.....you need the ABS plastic version that sells for $3300....with the $100 savings you can then afford to have your CH wheels crack tested...lol BTW, my CH wheels have different inserts than yours....Dave Helms is spot on with his post. While you are measuring today be sure to check the seat angle on your inserts. Dave alerted me to that this morning and I'll be checking mine later on this evening.
I looked in my scrap bin to photo some of the modified pieces but I threw them all away so I wouldnt ever use them by accident. The inserts on the 348IMSA are something on the order of 37 degree seat angle if I remember correctly
