Mondial 8 weird start issue -- relay related

All,

I have a new to me Mondial 8 overall in great shape. Its been in storage for 10 years. Got it to start and did a few times around the block.

Now, I go to start and it did but turned off, then kinda cranks, then just doesn't. Battery is good.

Here is the weird part:

I removed the Starter Fuel Pump relay (its the Bosch 332204101) and in its place put another of the same type from elsewhere in fuse panel --- same behavior. BUT, I put a Bosch 0332014113 (the other type of relay in my fusebox) and IT CRANKS as soon as I turned the key one position. It does want to start but I turn it off ASAP. The relay is not the correct one and thus in key-on position that starter and fuel pump seems to be connected (would be bad to have engine running and starter motor on). HOWEVER, this does prove the starter/ignition works.

Thus, what gives? I tried cleaning connectors of course but have not tackled playing with the fusebox.

Anything else it can be?

(and of course I just ordered a full set of new relays but that does not seem to be the issue)

Thoughts?

 

Pump worked last time car started; did not pull safety on fuel distributor this time but with the wrong relay there it just about started so I think good.

Any simple way to see if it’s the ignition switch inside the cabin?

 

Thanks! Definitely the ignition switch! I took it out and apart, sprayed in cleaner and it worked instantly! but that only lasted a few more then it became intermittent again. Need a more permanent solution. Ignition pos 1 seems to work well. Maybe I will just add the switch you say and make it a push button start of sorts

However, next issue is that once car starts, it idles fine and rev's nicely to 5k no problem, but once warmer (I think) it turns off --- I cannot restart it unless I remove the safety switch, prime fuel pump, and then start. And it probably will do same. My driving attempts have been short and they end up in me pushing her home.

So, can it be the fuel pump is just not able to keep up? fuel filter? what does the fuel accumulator do?

D.

 

Guido: one more thing, I think I want to install a push button. I suppose it should be temporarily contact the "white wire" you mention and then why not one of the +12v wires to the ignition switch...maybe one of the red wires to the ignition switch is +12v strong enough to use?

 

Wow, many thanks! I have been reading up too and your suggestions are wonderful! Last night got it to start a few times but it still eventually dies and last time it was quite rough....so maybe injectors really-dirty too. When it was on for a while and warm, I pushed it to 5000 rpm and it sounded great. In short, I think I will try your suggestions as well as change some things:

-add push start button (ordered a nice color-matching one already)
-add a simple switch so that can easily close/open the safety switch (instead of continually disconnecting/connecting the fragile plastic connector near the CIS system)
-check fuel pressure (either as you say or with a fuel pressure gauge (I can get one for like $20)
-inspect vent tube in back of accumulator to see if accumulator works (if gas comes out, then bad)
-change fuel filter (still has original)
-fuel check valve is inside the fuel pump in this model so cannot check; if the pressure is good (when pump is on and when off), then I guess fuel pump is good
-change fuel injectors (already ordered)

also, I already cleaned connectors to
-cold start injector
-warm up regulator
(but not sure if they are working; BTW, the car DOES not fast idle when cold; wants to stay around 800 rpm)

it will take me some time to do all...

also, just in case will inspect distributors and change spark plug cables, but only after fuel system job... it does not SEEM like an electric problem...

 

Live in Indiana, US. Car in garage but its around 30-50F now. So you think the cold start injector is injecting too much fuel? Hmm.

About the starter-button....why not simply put a momentary button between the "white wire" of the ignition switch and a +12 wire of the ignition switch (I think a red wire). I think the problem is in the switch itself, and not the wiring in general from switch to starter. thoughts?

where do you live? argentina/brasil/belgium? I am originally from Peru

 

Guido (and others): many thanks in advance!

So, I disconnected the cold start injector...no significant(?) difference

I disconnected the fuel line from fuel distributor to WUR and let the fuel empty to a container when fuel pump is on. I *definitely* got less than 1 liter in 30 seconds. I probably got 0.25 liters in 30 seconds and then once I turned the pump off, more fuel eventually came out making the total around 0.5 liters. So, I changed the fuel filter (first time in many years I think) and I checked that no fuel comes out the back of the fuel accumulator. Re-did the test. Still same behavior.

*** Does this mean the fuel pump is too weak? *** I cleaned contacts (but after the above test, but they seemed ok).

The car did start but unlike before it could barely idle (at around 500 rpm) and if I gave it gas, it would want to turn off. I noticed that *slightly* depressing the air intake piston improved idle a little bit.

Fuel injectors bad? I just got new ones today but not installed.
Fuel pump bad?
Is there a procedure to open-up and clean the fuel distributor?
What else?

Thanks!

D.

 

ooops...ok, will redo the fuel delivery test...at first glance maybe its ok....when I first went to test after it being off all night, there was still fuel pressure in the lines.

I have been reading about cleaning the fuel distributor; I think I can attempt a clean of it....but not a disassemble. I cannot find a reference to that gasket you mention...do you have a part number of some information about it?

the car was sitting for 8 years with zero use and before that about 10 years of practically no use...maybe lots of dirt built up.

when I first started it a week ago, it seem to run fine and I went around the block a few times, but now it can barely stay on....*maybe* it means dirt/gel has freed itself from places and circulated around a bit and is clogging the lines.

If the injectors were dirty/clogged, it is hard to think ALL injectors got clogged simultaneously. There could be something more central in the fuel distributor (like the plunger) that is stuck/dirty.....

I guess?

 

Yes, I checked accumulator and no fuel comes out the back...
Pressing the air vane only helped very minorly if I pressed it about 0.5 to 1 mm down...more and engine would stall.
I know about WUR filters but have not checked yet.

**FD:

I did however take off the fuel distributor (not a rebuild). I see that the plunger is *stuck*. When I first removed it the plunger was slightly protruding. I pushed it in a bit and it fell slowly a little bit, but smoothly. Then, I pushed it in a little more and it is stuck up inside. Thus, I do not think it is "frozen" but it does not move freely. As I understand this is bad because it causes an imbalance between fuel and air. Maybe that is why it did not start/idle. When I first go it started it did work fine but I guess the dirt laying in the system after 10 years of nothing circulated around and into the plunger area... (or the o-ring went bad).

I do not quite understand the cleaning procedure. Is it that I cover all orifices except fuel intake and then blow compressed air in and the plunger will "pop out" (and I have to be careful that it does not shoot out and get damaged). Or, do I turn the big nut that is around that general area underneath the fuel distributor. Help!

If I cannot get the plunger cleaned and moving smoothly, then I will send out for a rebuild (to Larry @ CISFlowTech). In general, from what I can see, all looks clean.

**Plastic inserts:

Another question is when I removed the 8 lines on top of the FD (that go to the injectors), I saw a small plastic insert inside. For 2 of the 8 the insert was inside the metal screw and for the others it was loose inside the fitting in the FD (so if I turned the FD upside down, it would fall out). Where should these inserts be? They fit inside the screws with a little resistance and snug/snap. If they are just sitting in the FD, they would never actually go inside the screw (unless the fuel pushes them in, but if it did, why are some not inside?)

Many thanks in advance!

D.

 

I injected air through the top hole on the FD and the plunger did move out. I can push it back but it does not fall back down on its own...though it is easy to move.

Can I remove the big nut on the bottom surrounding the plunger so that then I can remove the plunger from the FD?

I guess I shall attempt a good cleaning. What solution is best? 50% fuel / 50% injector cleaner? lacquer thinner? carb cleaner mostly pure? I was thinking of it soaking in the solution first and then make a contraption to force cleaner through once of the 8 outputs, then another etc...

 

I think I successfully cleaned the fuel distributor! Now, when I push the plunger up, it comes down and I hear a faint "woosh". I cleaned using compressed air and carb cleaner. I also bought screws so that I could close all holes minus the ones I wanted to at that moment.

When I just installed it, I could still hear the "woosh" when I pressed down the air vane. So, I guess FD is good.

However, I cannot get it to start...

I also cleaned the filter on WUR, cleaned the cold start injector, removed distributor caps and cleaned contacts, and cleaned ignition coil contacts. Still no start. It cranks, but no start. It would seem like "no spark", however there was a time or two that it did seem to begin strt. I did loosen one of the screws of the pipe going to a cylinder's fuel injector and gas spewed out, so their is pressure... Not sure what else...

Tomorrow I will try to check if their is spark. I have new injectors too but not installed...don't know if that matters right now...

Any recommendations!

I *REALLY* want to drive the car....still have not been able to except for in the driveway a bit...

 

I've been looking around and reading; I have two questions (my car is '82 Mondial 8)

1. the auxiliary air valve (AAV) seems important...if it is "bad", does that mean it would not start? I "think" it has an electrical connection but I cannot see it; disassembling and cleaning all around there seems not too hard...

2. the electrovalve (which should have 3 vacuum lines only has TWO lines attached to it) (part #111704) -- the 3rd one is disconnected and I see no tube there; the car did work fine before my timing belt change and did work a few times after my timing belt change -- I don't think I disconnected it by accident; the ending seems a bit dirty as if it has not been connected for while; if I look closely at http://www.birdman308.com/service/cold_start/cold_start.htm it seems that in his diagram only 2 connections are used in the electrovalve, so maybe this is ok...seems odd though.


recommendations?