Mondial Fuel Pump Blowing Fuse | FerrariChat

Mondial Fuel Pump Blowing Fuse

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by freelapl, Jun 13, 2022.

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  1. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Two years ago I replaced my fuel pump on my '85 QV cabriolet and everything has been working fine until this week. I was driving along normally and then suddenly lost power. I was unable to start it again, as it appeared no fuel. In troubleshooting I saw the 15amp fuse was blown, so replaced it. I was able to drive another minute then it happened again. I kept replacing fuses to limp home, and then changed the fuel filter thinking it was plugged. No difference, it still keeps doing the same thing. I put in 20 amp fuses and still was blowing those, so pulling a lot more power than normal.

    Is this an indication of a bad fuel pump, or is it something else? I still have the original fuseboard in my car and was going to do the GT Parts upgrade at some point - could this be the source of the failure? Open to any and all suggestions!
     
    paulchua likes this.
  2. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    Pull the power supply wire off the pump and connect a voltmeter to the supply wire and earth- see if you are getting 12 volts. If the supply volts are down it will pull more amps. Power is volts x amps.
    Now connect pump and measure volts when you try to start, assuming fuse does not blow straight away.
    Try changing fuel pump relay if supply drops below 12 volts, also pump could be tight which would draw more amps. Happy hunting
     
  3. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Hi Mike, thanks for the advice, will do that. It has not been failing right at the start, only after running for 30 sec to a minute so should be able to measure the voltages while running.

    If the supply is showing less than 12 volts what would be the next step to identify the cause?
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #4 Steve Magnusson, Jun 13, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2022
    Yes, either ;) One fairly easy thing you can do is measure the volume of fuel being returned from the pressure regulator section on the fuel distributor back to the tank (the spec is 1L minimum in 30 sec, but it's usually 1.5~2X that). If it's very low, you could have a blocked fuel inlet screen on the fuel distributor (just learned of another case of that) or blocked fuel filter -- and either would cause the fuel pump to work very hard = reduces fuel pump motor RPM = reduces the back EMF of the motor = increases the current the motor draws a lot. See page D34 in the Mondial8/QV WSM (the figure is for a K-Jet without Lambda fuel distributor, but I believe the K-Jet with Lambda fuel distributor is similar in this regard).
     
    ronfrohock likes this.
  5. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Hi Steve, the increased back pressure was my first thought as well so I changed the fuel filter to a new unit and still seeing the issue. In addition to the voltage measurements I will inspect the fuel inlet screen per the shop manual references and see if there is anything there. I had filled up with a fresh tank of gas, then saw the problem about 10 miles down the road - not sure if that is coincidence or if something happened as a result of a new full tank of gas. Really appreciate the insights!
     
    ronfrohock likes this.
  6. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    I tried this and found the supply voltage at 11.74 volts . When connected to the pump the voltage was 10.9 volts, and while cranking the start it went to 9.1 volts. I inspected the fuel distributor screen and it was clean. I replace the fuel filter and no improvement. I did check the far right connector to the fuesboard and saw burn marks.
     

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  7. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,835
    Isle of man- uk
    You should measure the volts from the battery terminals directly with key off, then key on. Supply volts less than 12 is low. You are losing volts to the fuel pump which is not right, Steve above is the man to talk to , he can point u in right direction
     
  8. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Thanks Mike. I measured the voltage at the battery with key off and was 12.73 volts. The measurement with key on was 12.10 volts. Do I have bad relay or something else like the fuse board?
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #9 Steve Magnusson, Jul 2, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
    Those voltage measurements are not crazy bad (without the engine running, the battery voltage "droops" down when you draw current out of it due to the batteries' internal resistance -- and the more current being drawn out, the more the voltage droops down), and a low voltage can't cause that connector to "burn" more nor cause a fuse to blow. It would be more meaningful to measure the current that the fuel pump motor draws when running -- should be in the 9-10A range for a broken-in stock F CIS pump IME. If it's higher -- measure the return fuel flow to the tank (when the pump is running, but the engine isn't running). If that's low = you have a blockage somewhere. If the return flow is OK, and the pump motor current is high = justifies getting a new pump. If the pump motor current is normal-ish, and the return flow is OK = your fuse-blowing problem is elsewhere.
     
  10. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    I have a new fuel pump - would it be safe to replace the old one? Does a fuel pump fail intermittantly? I replaced the fuel filter and cannot find any other blockages. The fuel accumulator was replaced last year and has less than 500 miles so it should be good.
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    For a test, I don't think there would be a problem. An intermittent failure would be unusual, but not impossible. Are you saying that everything is OK now, and the fuse-blowing problem has gone away?

    Did you inspect the inlet filter screen to the fuel distributor? The "return flow to the tank" test is the best functional test for a blockage IMO. An Accumulator causing a blockage would be very improbable.
     
  12. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Hi, I don't think the problem has gone away just yet. I did clean the contacts on the fuse board so hope that helps.

    I have not been able to locate the inlet filter screen to the fuel distributor. I looked in the D section of the shop manuel and cannot find it listed - any suggestions on exactly how to do that would be helpful. I can only assume to disconnect the input fuel line but not sure which one it is - there is one connection that has two lines going into fuel distributor - is that it?
     
  13. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
  15. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Update - I disconnected the main fuel line input to the fuel distributor and inspected the inlet screen. It was completely clean - no dirt or blockages.
     
  16. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    One additional note - when I disconnected the primary power from the fuel pump to do the voltage measurements I noticed that it was only 2-3 threads engaged on the nut. When I was reconnecting it after the test I was able to secure it firmly all the way tight. I did a few test drives with a 15A fuse in slot for fuel pump and so far so good. I am thinking it might have been that the connection had worked loose and was getting intermittant shorting, resulting in the surge of current and the fuse blow. Does this make sense?
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, multiple inrush current events done quickly one after another could overwhelm and blow the fuse. The fuse only survives the initial inrush high-current event because it doesn't last very long. That said, it could be something else, but you can't fix what isn't broken so keep monitoring ;).
     
    freelapl likes this.
  18. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    So a quick update - I replaced the fuel pump with a new unit. Unfortunately that did not clear the problem. I have replaced the fuel pump, accumulator, and filter with no improvement in the original problem. I'm open for any and all suggestions, especially since the voltages all check and no other obvious issues. Suggestions? It is still the original circuit board - is it time for a GT Car Parts replacement?
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Always possible that it is just something bad on the fuse-relay panel itself. That fuel pump fuse does also supply +12V power to the AAV heater, the WUR heater, and to close the Protection Relay. Once the engine is warmed up, you could just unplug the AAV heater and the WUR heater (as those will have absorbed enough natural heat from the warm engine) to see if that prevents the trouble, and have a look at their wiring for any pinching, insulation wear-thru, etc.. You can't really unplug the Protection Relay and have the engine run OK. Good Hunting!
     
  20. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    Hello, a quick update on my quest to fix the blowing fuse. I tried what Steve suggested but no luck in fixing it. I did the fusebox rebuild with GT car parts as well as a new "W" connector to replace the burned one. I took a test drive and still had the same problem. I also noticed that the relays S and T for the fuel pump and AC unit (Bosch 113 relays) started to get really warm right away. Are my relays failing? Not sure what else to do.....
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,140
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Relays will run warm if the contacts inside develop a little resistance, but that (alone) can't cause a fuse to blow. Have you tried a different ...113 relay in the fuel pump relay position? Also, can you confirm that this is a US version 1985 Mondial QV?
     
  22. freelapl

    freelapl Karting

    May 8, 2006
    88
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    Full Name:
    Pete Freeland
    I swapped both relays and that didnt help. I did confirm the car is a US version 1985 QV 3.0. I also pulled the 20A fuse for the air conditioning, thinking that might help as well. No luck, after about 3-4 minutes they get hot to the touch. I've been looking through the wiring diagram trying to figure out what could have failed that is causing this higher than expected current draw. Open to any other ideas!!
     
  23. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,910
    Central Florida
    Well, it's not the burnt white connector that is the problem, it is the tiny metal spade connector at that circuit itself. I replaced mine with 3/16" gold plated spades with a short length of wire to get past the burnt/hot part, crimped AND soldered the connection on the spade and the splice, also spray everything with DeOxit before reassembly. The previous owner installed a GT Parts board and still soldered a take off wire from the fuel pump circuit on the board. Relays can get warm, so I also built a thermo controlled 3" fan into an old ratty fuse box cover and used that for a while, but now I just run with the cover off, its in a fairly well sealed, dry environment, so it has been OK. I'll post some pics of the cover, new connector leads are here, but I don't sell them anymore: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/charred-w-connector-repair-kits.503449/
    Alden
     
  24. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,910
    Central Florida
    350HPMondial likes this.
  25. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 25, 2010
    2,910
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