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Mondial T Belt Service Without Dropping Motor!

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Stackhouse, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. Stackhouse

    Stackhouse F1 Rookie
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    #1 Stackhouse, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
    Saw it with my own eyes, even took pics to prove its possible!

    A friend wanted to see if the Myth of doing the belts with the motor in was possible so we got together a few weeks ago to test his theory, here is what we learned.

    The process requires a lift (2post) and the removal of the gas tank.

    NOTE!! BE SAFE!! Disconnect battery and have fire extinguishers handy at all times! Remember there is GAS in the tank and you will need to drain it all so no open flames, including water heaters , close by!!!

    Removing the tank is very easy, once the supports are unbolted and lines disconnected it will drop right out- I will not go into detail how to do this, there are many references on how to do this correctly!

    Once removed you will have access to the front of the motor.

    Timming belt covers can be removed, it was easier to remove the upper portion of the two cooling lines via the assess hatch behind the rear seats to facilitate the removal of covers.

    Once covers were removed you will have access to belts

    Just like any Timming RR make your marks, lock the cams … (Follow Documented Procedures)

    To remove the belt you need to move the crankshaft pulley forward, we shaved the socket on the impact wrench to allow a better fit. There is enough room to use an extension , there is a frame cross member that runs right in front of the pulley, but no modification to the frame is needed as the bolt sits just above it allowing room for the extension. You can also use a breaker bar, just be sure the car is secure on the lift!!!

    Once the crankshaft pulley is moved forward you can remove and replace the timing belt.

    Both bearings were also replaced using the “Shaved” (ground teeth) puller.

    Everything else it straight forward from this point on.

    As previously mentioned, yes the water pump can also be replaced this way too.

    And , since the last service on this car ( engine out) was performed over 12 yrs ago with less than 8k miles, the need to address cams was not necessary. However I have seen photos online, and will agree that if one removed both rear wheels and inner wheel wells you can remove the covers and degree and shim to your hearts content!

    IMHO, Access to both sides of the motor on a T (with engine in) is greater than any other variant of Mondial ! I would argue there is no difference between performing a belt service in this manner (engine in) on a T as there is on any other Mondi.

    All said and done, with the tools handy and lift this could easily be done in 6-8 hours if you are already familiar with what to do. If not take your time and invite me over to cheer you on!!

    Will post pics real soon…

    Happy wrenching

    CT
     
  2. Stackhouse

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    #2 Stackhouse, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. Stackhouse

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    #3 Stackhouse, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. Stackhouse

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    #4 Stackhouse, Apr 9, 2016
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  5. davebdave

    davebdave Formula 3
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    Nice work. I've also heard of this method but never seen any pictures.
    thanks for posting,
    Dave
     
  6. Dizengoff

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  7. porphy

    porphy Formula 3
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    Nice to see after reading about it.
     
  8. MvT

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    Oh wow! I saw something similar that one dropped the engine a little, not sure if the tank was removed. Later on it was discussed by people that this was not true. Since I do not own a T it lingers in the back of my mind! thanks for giving this peace of mind :) great to see that we now have actually pics with a method that works!

    Would you be able to replace the water pump too this way?
     
  9. Bell Bloke

    Bell Bloke Formula 3

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    Nice Job Chap! I like to see people bending the rules and doing a good job in the process. :)
     
  10. soucorp

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    #10 soucorp, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I wouldn't have believed it until I actually had to do my own analysis.
    Absolutely, there seems to be enough space to replace the T's cambelt without dropping the engine.

    Terrific, good JOB !
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  11. MMT

    MMT Karting

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    Good work something to think about when my time to do timing belt on my T.
    cheers
    Michael
     
  12. 002LM

    002LM Rookie

    Apr 19, 2016
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    excellent work!
     
  13. redlightrich

    redlightrich Karting

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    I want to thank you very much for posting this. It appears the hardest part of changing a timing belt on a Mondial T is removing the gas tank. I am in the process of doing this right now and will also post pix to help all who wrench their own.

    The gas tank removal is straight forward, with the most difficult part being the removal of the 4 evap hose quick disconnect ( those should be renamed to painfully slow and difficult disconnect) fittings.
    The issue here is that 25 plus years have rendered the plastic fittings inflexable. What I used (when not concerned about fuel vapor) was some silicone spray and a heat gun. I also used an old spark plug boot remover, which allowed my to apply even and gentle force. Slow go, but it can be done.

    After the tank is removed, you will be surprised about the amount of room available. If you have to service the entire motor doing a complete major, then removal of the motor may make more sense. However, if you only need to change a " aged out" timing belt, the fuel tank method is probably the best route.

    Again I truly thank you for pointing this out to us all. If not for this thread, my motor and subframe would probably be on a set of stands right now!!!!!!!!

    I will add pix to this thread very soon.

    Thank you and kindest regards

    Rich
     
  14. yelcab

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    I always do a full belt change, tensioner bearing change, valve adjustment by removing the cam shafts, cam timing of the engine on a 3.4L engine, and changing all troublesome electrical crimps and boots. For that much work, the engine needs to come out of the chassis. On a 348, there is not much space in front of the crank pulley so engine-in belt change is not even possible.

    For your T engines, if all you are doing is a timing belt change, then it looks doable. But, a major service is not a timing belt change.
     
  15. motomike8

    motomike8 Karting
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    Totally agree belt change is not a major - when you pull the engine/trans down you are very likely to find several other items that need attention: hoses, seals, wires, boots, clamps, etc. that need to be replaced. These are 25+ year old cars now. You're better off to take your time and do it the traditional way IMHO. The car was designed to come apart that way and it's really not that big a deal if you have the right equipment.
     
  16. VEEP

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    Same issue is with the Thema 8.32. Some shops do want to keep the myths alive that the engine really has to come out. I do not know how many, but a lot of 8.32 owners have had to pay the extra hours for a engine out procedure while it was performed with engine in...
     
  17. yelcab

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    I don't know what you mean by 8.32, but if you are speaking of the 3.2L engine in a 328 or a Mondial 3.2, then that engine does not need to come out.

    However, my next 3.2L major, the engine will come out for other things.
     
  18. VEEP

    VEEP Formula Junior

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    I am talking about the Lancia Thema 8.32, so the one with the Ferrari engine in it.
     
  19. bencollins

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    Great topic, and input also from Rich, but you have scared me a bit with the heat gun and gas tank combo. Say it aint so! Or i have misunderstood.
     
  20. yelcab

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    I do absolutely hate those quick disconnect pain the asses vent lines. I gotta try the heat gun trick next time. Hard to get to with some of those connectors sometimes.
     
  21. gsfent

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    Rich said he was not concerned with fuel vapors. That leads one to believe he had plenty of space and air, and he probably just drained the tank.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  22. redlightrich

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    Again, I wish to give a big thank you to stackhouse. I may have figured this out when I removed my tank, but it certainly made my planning easier. Your pix gave me confidence. My biggest fear became a non issue which was making a puller for the crank pulley. The pulley needs to come forward approx 1" to make room to remove the belt which is on the pulley behind it. Mine moved forward with slight careful prying, so no puller was necessary. My guess is that it all depends on tolerance stack. Large crank snout and small pulley = need for puller, opposite end of spectrum is what I have.
    The coolant hoses need to be removed, as I couldn't get the cam belt cover forward enough with them in the way. Plan to drain the coolant system. I can't see a way around it. Also it is a good time to replace AC compressor and Alternator belts. They need to come off.
    I will be posting pix this week. To lock the cams from moving I used a some hard plastic in between the cam gears ( so they wouldn't deflect under pressure) and a pair of Vice Grip pliers. Don't cringe, I saw this technique in the 360 factory manual ( to which I cringed). You will see that there is not much room in between the cam gears, so a universal cam tool will not fit. You don't want to bear down on the vice grip, just tight enough so the cams don't move under the valve spring pressure.
    I also always mark "teeth" on every component and count, and match markings to the new belt. This does a few things, first you are being certain that the tooth count is the same from old to new, and it will help to avoid installing the belt a tooth off on one of the components. With a belt this long, that is easy to do. BTW this belt is 182 teeth.

    Ben, thank you for questioning the heat gun. As I said, I used it when appropriate, which was before the system was opened and vapors present. There are 4 evap lines connected to the tank. 2 are visible with the tank in place and 2 are visible after the tank is "dropped" a bit. There is one ( the only 90 degree fitting) right behind the fuel filler hose, which I would have loved to use heat, but alas, my fear of explosion won out of my desire to easily remove the fitting. Unfortunately, I cracked that one, and I am now searching for a fitting and a hose splice. Safety first. I did not look into the possibility of dropping the whole evap system with the tank ( it is a horizontal tube mounted higher than the motor visible on the bulkhead wall). I promise next time I would look into the feasibility of this. The quick disconnect fittings ( they need to rename those to easy on and slow and painful to take off fittings) are a major PIA!!

    My timing belt was very stretched and becoming brittle. The adjuster/tensioner at full extension was barely enough to fully tighten the belt. I question how old it was. I didn't yet attempt to get a date code from the old one, but I will. That level of stretch will alter cam timing and although it will run, and run ok, it will not allow the optimal specs to be achieved.
    The tensioner is another tricky item. It needs to be FULLY retracted to get it back in with a new belt. I searched 348 timing belt and took someone else's idea of using zip ties to hold it in. A large vice helps tremendously. The zip ties must be placed properly so they can be cut off when in place. There are 3 mounting studs, and they are long enough where you can get all 3 nuts started before you cut the ties. Be careful, as the tensioner is under stress when fully retracted. It popped on me once, so I doubled up on the zip ties the 2nd time.

    I will say, that this method has a tremendous value, especially with the belts aging out, but it is not appropriate for all services. There will be times where the motor out makes the best sense. I am in a situation where I am trying to assess the overall condition of the car, and I needed to remove the fuel tank anyway. I would not have liked to do this service on my back, although 25 years ago, maybe I would. Thank goodness I own a lift!!!

    I will post pix to add to this thread. Maybe it can be used as a resource by someone in the future. It helped me, so I give a BIG thank you to Stackhouse ( and the fellow from Club Scud that also took pix on his 348).

    In closing, to add to Ben's concern, handling fuel requires absolute respect. I know someone who lost their life ( after a painful month of battling) as a result of using a small cup of gas to start an old car. Gasoline is powerful and it's fumes will easily ignite if you give it an ignition source. PLEASE BE CAREFUL. A heat gun has wires inside that glow red. that is how it makes heat. It will ignite vapor if present. I only used it BEFORE the system was open and no fumes were present. This is why I could not use it on the one near the fuel filler.

    Be safe and kind regards

    Rich
     
  23. Stackhouse

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    #23 Stackhouse, May 6, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Great write up! Looking forward to seeing your photos!

    We used small wood clamps to secure the cams in favor of the vice grips. Before removing belts we placed a wooden wedge between the cams to prevent slippage.

    Once the belts were removed we took another set of clamps and used them to secure the new belt once it was slipped on. This kept the belt and cams lined up perfectly! ( see pic )

    + 1,000 on gas tank removal. BE SAFE!!!

    EDIT: Oh, and you will also note the tensioner, initially we tried the zip ties too, but went to bailing wire because the ties kept slipping off. (FYI- Even if the engine was fully out of the car this would still be a little challenging ) Funny story- when using the vice to secure the tensioner with ties we opened the vice, the ties slipped and the sucker shot across the shop, bouncing off the mustang falling inches from the Cobra ha ha. The Mustang took one for the team. So when doing this remember, that sucker will FLY!!! ha ha.

    Happy Tinkering!!

    CT
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  24. bencollins

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    To warm up the silicone/rubber hoses perhaps hand/toe warmers can be used.
    Some are reusable, wrap them around, make a cup of coffee, tadaah! warm and flexy > well maybe assuming this gets the plastic warm enough to make a difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdwsMDVGc7A
    Reusable Emergency Heat Hand Warmers | eBay
    I think this topic and these detailed posts of contributors means those with a "T" just saw their values go up $4000. :D
     
  25. dimibo

    dimibo Karting

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    #25 dimibo, May 13, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    great topic, thank you for your info

    mine had to do a full engine out, since it needed a FULL gearbox rebuilt, completely took her apart and renewed the inside, amazing job by my mechanic

    also did a major engine clean up, good thing is when the engine is out, the inside can be cleaned, rensprayed, renewed, hoses new etc etc

    also all little parts were newly galvanized, the red parts repainted, silver and black parts newly painted etc etc

    more images on request, send me pm

    car is in rebuilt stage now, hopefully ready to drive in 3-4 weeks
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