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Mondial T engine in major

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Rupp3r, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Hello


    After having put back my refreshed gearbox I am now looking at doing the belts and more in the limit of the possible on my Mondial T without dropping the engine.

    The first question I have is do I have to remove the shift cable or can they handle the bending?


    I saw here that is look like the shift cable haven't been removed https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/mondial-t-belt-service-without-dropping-motor.518696/ (and also here I think )

    I thought I would be removing them easily like on a 348 but it is quite different since they are running through a tunnel and I think the only way to remove them is to remove them from the shifter and hop that it moves easily in the tunnel....

    Thanks
     
  2. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
    9,512
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    I dropped an engine out of a Mondi T last year and the cables were detached from the gearbox and bent out of the way. They will be fine. Are you not dropping the engine for this work?
     
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  3. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Hello

    Yes I checked it today by detaching it from the gearbox and I think they will bend fine.

    I have drained the tank and ready to drop it.

    Will upload pics afterward.

    No I am not dropping the engine. I don't feel confident doing it without a lift.

    I have long tought about it and I think I will be fine and I hope to be able to do more than just changing the belts.. Will keep you updated :)
     
  4. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,691
    Sonoma, CA
  5. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    How will you adjust the valves?
     
  6. alexion

    alexion Formula Junior
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    May 20, 2013
    810
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    I'd do it the correct way, or have it done correctly. Leaving the engine in the car is simply cutting corners.
     
  7. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    It can be done by just removing the cam covers in situ.


    I knew I was going to get this kind of reply.

    I don't want to go into a silly discussion, I will go through the job and at the end I will be happy to conclude if it is cutting the corner or not :)

    I have tought about it a lot of time and I know why I am doing it. Apart from a disaster broken bolt on the tensioner I think it is going to be fine and done properly :)

    I want to do it the right way and leaving the engine in the car. There is no way I will pay a crazy amount of money for something I can do and to pray that the mechanic who did it is not a scammer, like the previous one who did the belt on my car (before I bought it).. with the engine out.. :)


    Ok so today dropped the tank:

    Not a lot of things to have it on the ground:
    -remove the filler pipe
    -remove the two breather pipe (mine is without any after treatment option CAT or canister)
    -disconnect the fuel pump pipes, power wire and the jauge plug and make sure to put them on the other side of the crossmember otherwise the tank will hit them when going down
    -using a jack I was able to lower it nicely. There is no bolted mount on it like on the 348 so it can just be lowered.

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    Then the room is made and first good thing I should be able to crack the crank pulley bolt as is..

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  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    It's your car, have it your way. Good luck.
     
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  9. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,641
    New England/FL
    As Mitch said, it's your car but that sentence is an oxymoron. Good luck.
     
  10. Stackhouse

    Stackhouse F1 Rookie
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    Feb 14, 2004
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    CT.. AKA Pimp Daddy
    I kindly Disagree, this is not Cutting Corners.

    We were able to do all the belts and bearings on our T "Correctly" using this method. You can even adjust the valves "Correctly" if needed.

    No modifications to the car were necessary, as a matter of fact I believe this method is actually better seeing as you are not disconnecting, breaking and reassembling so many fittings, hoses, clamps, electrical connectors etc... you just need a slim mechanic with small hands! LOL

    Best of luck!
    CT
     
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  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    I would always choose to remove the engine because all it takes is 6 hours to remove the engine. You are spending at least 2 hours removing the tanks, and contorting your way in the front of the engine wastes another few hours of compromises. In the end you save only a couple of hours.

    With the engine out, you have the ability to renew hoses, repaint subframe, inspect and clean corners of engine, and if you have to remove the cam shafts for valve clearance and valve timing, the engine sitting on the floor is much more agreeable. And who among the owners can claim … I took my engine out of my Ferrari? Join the few, the proud, the engine removers.

    BUT, your car, have it your way.
     
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  12. alexion

    alexion Formula Junior
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    May 20, 2013
    810
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    :DI can make a baked potato in the microwave, but is it still a baked potato?
     
  13. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Today I removed the cooling 90° hoses at the front of the engine preventing to remove the timing cover.

    I struggled a lot to remove them and I don't know how I would have managed it if I was not able to pull the hoses from under (where the gas tank was).

    I removed the timing cover and as I already noticed previously the idler has not been changed during the previous service (but it is written on the bill..).

    I hope there is not a hidden issue with the bolt or the thread in the block..

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    I have a question for you in advance regarding the cam timing:

    Previously I have noticed that two cams are not spot on with the factory mark and one is quite far away.

    I will suppose that the factory mark are spot on.

    What is the correct procedure to correct the timing on these cams?


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  14. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,691
    Sonoma, CA
    are you going to inspect the water pump....
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
    9,512
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    The correct procedure is this:

    1. You roughly find TDC with any methods you like
    2. You align all cam shafts to the assembly hash marks
    3. You install the cam belt with all those positions locked down, somehow
    4. You tension the belts, lock down the tensioner bearing, then you spin the engine over a few times.

    Then you perform the cam timing procedure for a 348... either with a center line method, or a valve opening method. Both can be done at the same time.

    1. Find Cyl 1 TDC with whatever method, but with a degree wheel mounted
    2. Mount an indicator to intake valve of Cyl 1
    3. Turn crank 360 degrees
    4. Read the overlap value, compensate for your valve clearance
    5. If it is in spec, leave it alone
    6. If not, unpin the intake cam shaft sprocket, adjust it, and repin it.

    Right about now is when you wish you had taken the engine out.

    repeat with Cyl 1 exhaust cam, and then Cyl 8 Intake and exhaust cam.

    Yes, it is complicated, hard to do, and required now that you cam shaft is visibly out of spec. I just spent all morning doing cam timing on a 355 and that is with the engine sitting on the ground.

    Good luck.
     
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  16. SaratogaCA

    SaratogaCA Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2016
    294
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    Sam T.
    Good to know that after getting impeached, Trump can still find gainful employment if he just loses 100 pounds.


    Ok ok I will stop clowning around.



    - Sam in Saratoga
     
  17. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
    961
    Dallas
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    JERRY
    #17 JLF, Jan 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    How about taking your kalifornia views to the politics section.
    I come here to talk about cars.
     
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  18. SaratogaCA

    SaratogaCA Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2016
    294
    Saratoga, CA
    Full Name:
    Sam T.
    Since humor is lost on you, here are some FACTS:

    - California's GDP would make it the 5th highest of any nation on earth
    - SF Bay Area's GDP would make it the 21st highest of any nation on earth
    - UC Berkeley has been awarded more Nobel prizes in science than any other university on earth
    - Some 40% of NASDAQ market cap is headquartered in 4 SF Bay Area counties
    - Most of the tech companies that are NOT headquartered in the Bay Area have research labs here (Amazon, Microsoft)
    - Some 40% of the nation's produce comes from California's central valley.
    - Some 25% of US patents are issued to California inventors

    If the three blue states you hate the most (CA, NY, MA) were to leave the nation:

    - The nation would lose only 16.8% of its population, but 21.4% of its GDP and 24.3% of its aggregate personal and business tax revenue
    - The nation would have practically no mechanism to price and trade commodity futures, equities, debt instruments, or derivatives. The nation would have virtually no venture capitalists to fund innovation and growth. This means businesses could no longer raise money to innovate, grow, and create jobs. It also means businesses and farmers would not be able to hedge against price fluctuations.
    - The nation would lose virtually all research in quantum computing, big data analytics, internet security, robotics, Artificial Intelligence, data encryption, super computing, and other similar technologies that the nation desperately needs in order to maintain global technological superiority.
    - The nation would lose UC Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, MIT, Cornell, Cambridge, BU, NYA, Columbia U, and Cal Tech.

    Do I think California politicians have veered too far to the left? Heeeelllllll yessssss!!!!!!!

    But the fact that Trump voters hate (their hatred is patriotically suicidal, if you ask me) the very states that make America technologically innovative and economically strong, the very states that are our only chance to compete against China, is circumstantial evidence that a hostile foreign nation (Putin?) did an excellent job reaching angry white voters and convincing them that the very states that are carrying the nation forward are to blame for the nation's problems.

    I won't make any disparaging remarks about perennially red and impoverished states like Mississippi and West Virginia. Americans hating Americans is destructive for America, as Putin knows full well.

    Sam, proudly living in Saratoga, California
     
  19. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
    961
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    JERRY
    Blah blah blah.....take it to the politics section.
     
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  20. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    #20 Rupp3r, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
    Hello

    Woah I will give some news to go back on track :)

    Yeah I know it looks bad. It should have been replaced during the last belt service (5 years / 4000km) but it can be seen that at least one of the timing belt bearing has not been replaced (but it is written on the bill....). It is humid and cold where I live so can be normal ageing but since the previous mechanic was a scammer, if everything goes fine I will replace it.
    Hope that the WP bolts are not breaking like glass..!!

    Not a lot of news now since the holidays are off..

    I cracked the crank bolt using a Dewalt electric impact wrench. I was doubtful about it and the advertised 1600Nm but it is a beast!!!

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    Room was fine to use just by adding a small exnsion.

    Obviously I am not able to remove the pulley like that:

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    The pulley is hitting the cross member on 3cm.

    I was fearing that I would not have enough space in width between the two vertical beams but it is fine for 2/3mm, knew it was going to be tight!!

    So now if I want to do just the belt I could slide the belt behind the pulley and go for it. Very quick access.

    I may be ban from this forum now :D but my plan is to lift the front of the engine by 3cm to remove the pulley.

    I have removed the engine mount nuts and will lift the front of the engine which will tilt around the gearbox mount.
    I have removed the muffler since I can't loosen the secondary/headers clamp bolts which are absolutely rust welded....
    Have looked at all the attached stuff, I have undone two A/C and front engine oil pipe clamps and it should be fine for dealing with this small move.

    I have sprayed lots of penetrating oil and managed to release a littlte the tensioner and idler retaining bolts which was worrying me so should be good :)

    Hope I will manage easily to release the tension from the tensioner in order to remove the belt since it looks to be very strong from what I have seen and would like to avoid using a wrench against the WP since I don't know if something goes wront and I can't replace the WP..!!

    News in a few days..
     
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  21. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,691
    Sonoma, CA
    No evaluation at this time, but I'll be curious to know your true take on leaving in-situ vs, well, you know what. Truly, I look forward to this approach and honest assessment of time vs effort: I know I've done things a way that proved to be the wrong exercise against the best advice.

    But again, look forward to your true evaluation.
     
  22. Rupp3r

    Rupp3r Karting

    Aug 26, 2016
    143
    France
    Hello

    Yes will try to do a true assessment of this method when it will be done, regarding the waste of time and difficulties and what is as easy as I think it would be engine out.
    But I am not really after the quickest method, I just didn't wanted to pull the powertrain using floor jacks and lifting the car damn high and having a really bad time when putting pack the rear assembly in the car as I have been told this is not straightforward chiefly on a Mondial T.. and then it was also not the quickest way to do all I hope to do in situ..


    So small update after definitely a (the main?) difficulty of this method: removing the crank pulley.

    I think it is not necessary if you only plan to do the belt+idler+WP and I think doing the belt without removing the pulley should be quick..



    As I said before, I removed an AC pipe clamp as I don't think there was 3cm play in it:

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    I also removed the big oil pipe clamp to give it more play:

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    Then I removed the nut between the engine mount and the engine bracket both side:

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    Muffler removed, air filter box unbolted from chassis I have then raised slowly the engine, tilting it around the gearbox mount.

    However I noticed before having almost reached the necessary 3cm that it was raising the car also, because the tilted engine was still driving the unbolted engine mount..

    So I removed the bolts between the engine mount and the chassis after removing the big oil pipe preventing to remove one bolt.. (should have done it anyway :) )

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    Then the engine was raised from the chassis finely and the pulley was removed. I was fearing that it would not pass between the two vertical beams on the big crossmember but there was a few mm plays and it was fine (I can't avoid thinking this is not luck if there is just the space to put the pulley between these beams.. :)).
    This was the big identified issue and I was fearing this step of lifting the engine and removing the pulley, glad it is done and now I will go on!

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    Next step is to put cyl 1 at TDC and remove belts and tensioner/idler..
     
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  23. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    with all this futzing around, you could have had the engine out, the belts replaced, and the cam timed by now.
     
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  24. Stackhouse

    Stackhouse F1 Rookie
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    He is in no hurry and most importantly does not have a lift.
     
  25. fdekeu

    fdekeu Formula Junior
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    Love this thread!
     
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