Mondial8 not starting when it's warm/hot.

I had a similar issue on my 328. In the case of the 328, the battery is mounted behind the radiator. When the car warmed up, the battery cable clamp expanded faster than the battery post, and the cable got loose. The clamp was tight when it was cold. When warm, I'd have lights, etc., but not enough current to turn the starter. I had to clean the clamp and apply electrolyte gel.

Check if the dash lights dim when you turn the key to start. Try turning on the headlamps and hitting the starter. If the lights remain bright, you're not getting power to the starter (possibly a solenoid issue). If they dim out completely, you have a loose feed to the electrical system (battery cables maybe). (Does the Mondial also have the battery ground disconnect plug?) If the headlamps dim but remain lit, then you may have an issue where the starter is trying to turn the engine, but may be fighting some kind of vapor lock in the cyls.

 

I had the same issue with my 8 over Christmas. We replaced the batter cable going to the main wiring harness. My mechanic still thinks there is a short in the ignition switch, and we've currently got it rigged with a button start under the dash. Who says that its just the CS owners that get to push the button to start the car.

I'll have to get an update as to what's been going on lately.

 

This is a VERY common problem with the Mondial and 348. Ferrari issued a Technical Service Bulletin for this very problem. I had the same problem, my car started 1st time everytime when cold but when hot, turned the key and nothing at all. The only options were either to wait for between 30 mins and an hour or bump start.

The reason for the failure is 'heat soak' into the ignition cable coming from the ignition switch which reduces the resistance and not enough current to engage the solonoid. The solution Ferrari advised and issued to dealerships was a relay wiring harness which wires into the ignition wire and rather than a direct current from the ignition, the relay energises and thus giving full current all the time. My local dealer made one up for me as they are no longer available from the factory and Ive never had a problem since. (best £75 id eve spent as I was always embarrassed stopping for fuel and the dam car not starting and being stuck in the filling station for an hour!!)

If you need one let me know and Ill speak to my dealer.

 

Does anyone have a copy of the TSB?

 

Spoke to my dealer, he can obtain a copy. Tried offering him a beer in exchange for a copy but he dosent drink, but said they can be purchased for a small fee no doubt!

 

Definitely a very common problem. I recently had an unplanned 45 min stop on the Angeles Crest Hwy after some spirited mountain road driving in my Mondial t. I had understood it to be a heat issue with the ignition, but was not aware there was a solution other than waiting 10-60 min for the "heat soak" to wear off. I would definitely be interested in obtaining the TSB.

 

I did the mod myself, took about 30 mins. Messy job, because you are under the car, but easy enough.
You need a relay, wire and spade connectors.
I have a diagram somewhere, I do not have a scanner but I will try to reproduce it for you, it's definitely not rocket science.

 

Ah, but if you guys surf the archives, you can get the updated ACE replacement solenoid and avoid the wiring "work around" and keep it looking stock. Write up by 91TR (steve magnusson)

Dave

 

Be careful here though as I was all ready to rip out the starter motor and have it re-conditioned along with a new solenoid and it wasnt until I was speaking to my dealer that he advised a TSB was issued and its simply the heat soak in the ignition wire that causes the problem. Fitting a new solenoid will not stop heat soak.

Heat soak has been with the car as soon as it left the factory, the reason why it becomes a problem is the heat from the exhaust affects the greasing inside the solenoid and over a period of time gets harder to engage, especially with the reduced voltage drop.

He is trying to dig out the TSB, alternatively he said he is happy to make up some relay kits, along with all the associated wiring and instructions for £45 inc P&P

 

Dave, trust me it easy, the relay can only be a few pounds and the wiring is a breeze.

I have enclosed, a BMP, its a lousy drawing, but the best I can do !
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The "heat soak" IS on the solenoid, not the wire. Based on 91TR's post, the ACE solenoid seems less prone to this problem, thus avoiding the "work around" with the extra wiring and relay.

Dave

 

I wonder if placing a simple piece of heat-shield material just above/around the solenoid would stop this recurring? There's plenty of space there. It wouldn't even have to be high-tech - it's probably just a radiant heat issue (being down the bottom of the engine), so even tin-foil may do the trick!

Hey, even a beer-can over the solenoid could do it! ("Just gotta down these beers to fix the car, Honey")

 

I had the very same symptoms usually OK when cold, just clicked when hot.
if I put a slave battery on, it usually started ok.

The problem as explained to me was that the voltage dropped at the solenoid, causing it "not" to activate properly. The method I used, ie the relay, ensures you have good voltage at the soleniod end. Works every time.

 

OK, this is how I see it, I am not to sure what the Heat soak issue is, what I do know is that the switch gear on these cars is marginal, and you can experience all sorts of problems with loss of voltage because of poor connections.
OK so far ?
Now, I was told, that the voltage at the starter end of the cable could have dropped enough for the Solenioid not to "kick" in (we will come to that in a sec). This can be make worse if you have an immobiliser on you vehicle as well, and sure enough, in the info for my immobiliser, it does mention a voltage drop.
Now the Solenoid is a type of switch and activator (I guess).
When you turn the ignition switch to the start position, it activates the solenoid, this pulls a gear on the starter onto the starter ring on the flywheel. Once this is in position it also activates the starter motor, so turning you engine over (all in a heart beat).
There are two cables going to the starter, one is from the ignition switch, "start position" and the other is the Main Power cable, Big rascal (from the Battery), and thats the one that suppliers the power to turn the engine over.

Ok so far, I am lousy at explaining things.
So if the voltage on the ignition start cable is poor, it will not activate the Solenoid and the starter will not kick in and turn the engine over.
Does that make any sense ?

 

One more thing, sorry, the idea of the relay, is to use a good 12 volts source from the battery cable on the starter, and the original wire from the ignition switch to activate the relay.
The relay is just a form of electric switch !

 

As I understand it, this is to be done:
To the starter motor are a thick wire, problably secured on a 8 mm post with a 13 mm nut, and a thin wire. The thin wire has to be connected to nr 85 at the relay, a new thin wire has to go from the thick wire on the starter to nr 30 on the relay, a new thin wire from nr 87 at the relay to the original position of the the other thin wire on the starter, and a new thin wire from nr 86 at the relay to some good ground point at the chassis. Correct?

 

YES, simple as that, and for me it worked !

 

Had the same problem on my 84.

Changed the fuel pump and gas filter and the problem seemed to go away. And it was really hot this week-end. The perfect fix for my Grand Prix Week-end.

 

That component in your photo look like another relay that someone had already previously added to help with the hot mis-start problem. There's no point in having two relays added -- I'd remove that "old" one (and its connections) and only use the "new" relay (although I still favor just getting a better solenoid that can work reliably at ~8V -- but I know you location can make that a different/difficult situation).

 

You've always got the possibilty that the starter solenoid itself has gotten worse so now, even with only one "new" properly working relay, it won't work.

If you've got the access, unplug the wire from the terminal 50 on the starter solenoid and touch a large jumper wire (or screwdriver, etc.) directly from the +12V battery cable stud to the terminal 50 male spade on the starter solenoid -- if that doesn't cause the starter solenoid to fire you can be fairly sure that it's bad and needs to be replaced.

Of course, this stuff also relies on the starter motor being well grounded to the engine and the engine being grounded to the chassis -- you might also try loosening and then retightening the stater motor mounting screws just as a quicky way to try to "refresh" the grounding and/or checking the ground strap connections from the engine to the chassis.

Just some ideas...