Mondials For Sale

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by 123howie, May 26, 2015.

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  1. gsfent

    gsfent Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2009
    984
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    There are so few of these cars that it is a bit hard to tell what the market is. Recent t coupe sale to a member here went in the low 60's. Merlin has a no story's car with an ask of $75k and a reputation for being patient. Any car may need maintenance now or in the future, but the depreciation is over. They are headed up, at what rate is anybody's guess.

    With only 43 sent to North America, these don't come up for sale very often. What good is money if you can't get what you want with it?

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
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  2. mike dougherty

    Feb 27, 2010
    30
    I was talking about the convertible with 2,000 miles on it

    I'm sure your advise is the came on either one

    Thanks
     
  3. alexion

    alexion Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2013
    455
    New York
    Someone thought this 4 year older T with 7k more miles was worth $66,000 plus a 5% buyers premium: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1989-ferrari-mondial-t-cabriolet-2/

    Hope that helps put things into perspective.
     
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  4. gsfent

    gsfent Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2009
    984
    PB County, Florida
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    Jerry
    Sorry Mike thought you were referring to a t coupe at Lake Forest.

    But see Alexion's response above. General advice remains the same!!

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  5. hypoluxa

    hypoluxa Karting
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    Jan 6, 2018
    65
  6. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
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    JERRY
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  8. 2cam

    2cam Karting

    Aug 28, 2014
    226
    Austin, Texas
  9. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2014
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    The Ferrari you own and love is the best Ferrari in the world. And miles are good, not bad! Don't sweat it.
     
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  10. gsfent

    gsfent Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2009
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    Jerry
    I wouldn't fret too much. Miles are not that big of a deal if the car is properly serviced. Only in Ferrariland do we think 40k miles is not ultra low for an almost 30 year old car! :(

    Values of these cars won't go down based on depreciation (they might if there is a ton of deferred maintenance). So you can probably drive your car and get what you paid for it years from now when/if you go to sell as long as you maintain it. Can't say that about too many cars you can actually afford to buy in the first place!

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
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  11. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
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    Yea you guys are right, my friend said the same.
     
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  12. alexion

    alexion Formula Junior
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    May 20, 2013
    455
    New York
  13. paulchua

    paulchua F1 Rookie
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    Agr
    Completely agree. If you plan to keep the car for at least 10 years, I think you shall be rewarded.
     
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  15. hypoluxa

    hypoluxa Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 6, 2018
    65
    I'm finding that mileage is almost an obsession in "Ferrariland". In my experience with old cars, time, storage conditions and lack of use are the bigger enemies.

    If mileage were so harmful, this guy would be driving a pile of dust right now: https://nypost.com/2016/02/28/this-guys-1966-volvo-has-over-3-million-miles-and-isnt-slowing-down/
     
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  16. 2cam

    2cam Karting

    Aug 28, 2014
    226
    Austin, Texas
    The impact of mileage on usability and value are two different things. The values of Ferraris and Corvettes especially seem to be adversely impacted by the addition of miles. However, higher miles on either doesn't mean that they're not completely usable. I blame it on the fact that there are soooo many low mileage/low-use Corvettes and Ferraris sitting around that whenever one pops up with mileage that is more inline with the real world, it is compared against those with lower miles in the market and their value gets dinged as a result. Why would someone buy a high mileage Ferrari when they could buy one with lower miles??? After all, lower miles = better condition and less dollars needed for upkeep, right? ;) As automotive enthusiasts, I assume we understand that isn't necessarily the case. However, the general buying public doesn't always realize that. IMO, the market break-point for "low" miles on Mondials seems to be about 30K. Anything above that and you start seeing their market values decline as a result.

    Honestly, Hypoluxa, I think that this is one of the primary reasons your car hasn't sold in the price range that you've been hoping for. Combine its "higher" miles with an overdue service and less than perfect cosmetics and you have a recipe for a car that will probably struggle to bring more than $30K in the current market. Regardless, cool car. Perhaps it's worth holding onto.

    2cam
     
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  17. gsfent

    gsfent Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2009
    984
    PB County, Florida
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    Jerry
    Not sure I agree with all of it, but empirically, you have a point.

    But not using a car is detrimental to its well being. Nothing worse for a car than letting it sit. So there is a real balance between not overusing it to depress value and underusing it incurring additional running and maintenance costs. For all the extra "value" you have by not using the car, you probably use most of those phantom extra dollars for additional upkeep. So the seller has a lower mile car that needed more service by the seller or a higher mile car that the seller has just needed regular service. As that old Fram oil commercial tagline said, "you can pay me now or pay me later".

    A Mondial t coupe at $30k needing a service? So what, budget $7500 and that would easily include water pump and a couple of unknowns, including a SRI upgraded fusebox!!!;)

    I certainly am biased, but that is way low to me IN TODAY'S MARKET. Take a look at BaT for some real world sales that are disclosed. Look at Merlin'S asking price for its "high mileage" car.

    Some of the better cars change hands here without even being offered up to the group. Hard to know what those go for.

    Regards.

    Jerry
     
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  18. JLF

    JLF Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2009
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    JERRY
    Look at the Porsche 964 market now. It’s insane. That’s what I was going to buy before I started researching Mondial. But too many people trying to sell junk for a fortune. Guys are begging other guys to sell them their cars. A nice example pops up for sale and it’s gone in less than a day. Those cars are roughly the same age as these and 60k miles would be considered “low”.
     
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  19. paulchua

    paulchua F1 Rookie
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    interesting to see the price discrepancies in Europe. The cabs there seem to be in higher demand vs their Unicorn status here in the states:

    3/21/2018 Silverstone Mondial t Cabriolet high bid $50K (60,000 miles)
    7/7/2018 Le Mans Classic 38k km sold for 37K
     
  20. paulchua

    paulchua F1 Rookie
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    Interestingly too is that the total production of the 964 = 62,000
    total production of the Mondial line = 6,100

    They are literally 10 times rarer.
     
  21. 2cam

    2cam Karting

    Aug 28, 2014
    226
    Austin, Texas
    I honestly can't speak to private party sales since I don't have visibility into those. Public-facing transactions are what I have built my opinions on. I think it's safe to say that BaT has consistently brought the highest prices for public sales of Mondials over the past couple of years. If you take a look at BaT sales of Mondial Ts, each of them has had half to a quarter of the mileage of Hypoluxa's T Coupe. The only one of those T Coupe sales that had similar miles (93K miles actually) was a Coupe that had gone through a complete restoration and had a current service. It sold for $38K without the buyer's premium. As for Merlin's cars, those are just asking prices. There are quite a few Mondials that get listed over and over and over again without selling. An exceptional 3.2 Coupe sat stagnant on the market for months at $40K without selling. It finally sold to a Fchat member for an amount considerably less than the asking price. Hypoluxa's T has been for sale for half a year - both here and on ebay - it hasn't been purchased at it's current price. My point is that the U.S. Mondial market is mostly stagnant and the cars are unlikely to move quickly unless it is an exceptional example or its priced appropriately (or a combination of the two). I believe that this probably extends to private-market transactions as well. The demand just doesn't exceed the supply here.

    As for 964s, it does seem ridiculous that those cars are bringing the money that they are. However, they're in a completely different place than Mondials from a market desirability perspective. They're a member of the air-cooled 911 family which is one of the hottest cars in the market right now. Singer uses 964 Coupes as the basis for their creations which gives them a bit of credibility and desirability as well. I like air-cooled Porsches and have two of them myself. However, I see no reason why they should be worth more than a Mondial. Interestingly, the market value of my '86 Carrera coupe with 110K miles on it is more than most of sales that I've seen on pre-T Mondials with half the miles. I don't agree that it's "worth" more than a Mondial, but the general buying public seems to believe that it is. There isn't a time that I take the car out that someone doesn't ask me if its for sale.

    2cam
     
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  22. alexion

    alexion Formula Junior
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    May 20, 2013
    455
    New York
    The reason Mondials sit is because people are afraid to make the first move. We live in a world of followers seeking validation by their peers. Oh, Porsche’s are cool? Okay, let’s start paying 4x what they’re worth so we can be like everyone else. People are insecure when they purchase a Mondial because they don’t have validation. If someone important said they are excellent cars, the market would be forever changed. That’s just the way it works sometimes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. Laserguru

    Laserguru Formula Junior
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    Aug 7, 2016
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    Eric
    Mondials are really cool cars!!.................oh wait, you said it had to be someone important.......

    Actually, the coolest car is the one you own and love. It really is as simple as that. If you think you need someone else's validation for you to feel your car is cool enough, then you don't have the right car for you.
     
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  24. alexion

    alexion Formula Junior
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    May 20, 2013
    455
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    I didn’t say it wasn’t cool. I’m speaking hypothetically for the ones that don’t know. I have one and I know how cool it is.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. jjmalez

    jjmalez F1 Rookie
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  26. gsfent

    gsfent Formula Junior

    Nov 16, 2009
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    PB County, Florida
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    Jerry
    Good discussion.

    There is a different market for coupe and convertibles. People seem to want one or the other. And I think there is a difference between a 3.2 and a t. I know when I was looking I considered a couple of nice 3.2 coupes, but to me the features (or lack of them) didn't compare to the t.

    There are a whole lot more convertibles than coupes, so it is harder to get a market handle. There has not been a t coupe sale on BaT in about a year and a half. That is an eternity in an exotic car marketplace (up or down).

    I agree Merlin has an "asking price", but I think the history is they usually get close as they understand the market. But even if you take $10k because they missed the market, that is still $65k ( I actually thought they were going to list it at $80k). A recent private transaction for a t coupe with a member here went in the low $60's. Both cars I believe in the "high mileage" 40k range. So even a much higher mile car with all services shouldn't sell for just over half of that (to me). With all services though is the key.

    If you put a car on BaT, I believe you have to add in the 5% buyers premium because that is what is being paid by the buyer. Any buyer has to consider the premium as part of the purchase price.

    As to the 964's, I agree. They are certainly good analog cars, where it is mostly driver and not computer running the show. But the prices have gotten out of control. Prices are driven by supply and demand. Demand is simply "want" (not need) and discretionary income. So that is driving 964 prices. I would be very happy with a 997 as a good compromise; 991 too much computer control for me. And it will probably equal or exceed a 964 in almost every objective category. More hp, slightly heavier, but rear mid engine vs rear engine. Much easier to drive (except AWD 964's).

    5 years ago, you could pick up a 3 pedal 550 for 60-80k. Now prices have just about doubled. Same car. Demand has gone through the roof. I certainly don't think our cars will show that type of appreciation because they are sportier, less a GT tourer. But our cars would stack up well objectively with the 964, although most people would consider the 964 more robust and more reliable. German engineering beats Italian engineering, although Italian styling smashes German styling.

    Fun to watch the party unfold!

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  27. Frosty614

    Frosty614 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2018
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