News

Montoya was right..........

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by kizdan, May 10, 2004.

  1. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,283
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    I am just bracing myself before the backlash I will get from this thread. Okay, here goes..........

    I sat down to watch the Spanish G.P. yesterday, and it was the very first time that I got to see a review of Montoya and Schumey's first corner incident from last race. There was the in-car camera on Schumey's car, and Montoya very clearly did pull ahead of Schumey in the corner, which should give him the right to his racing line. After the incident happened, I was hoping to see an overhead shot to see if Montoya did indeed get ahead, and this view verified that. Two things could have happened with Schumey; 1) he carried too much speed into the corner, and could not tighten it up any more than that, thus forcing Montoya off on the outside 2) he saw Montoya alongside of him, felt because he was on the inside, the preferred racing line, regardless of who was actually ahead of the other, that he had the right to stick to his racing line, thus forcing him off.

    Bottom line; I think Schumey should have been penalized AND that was perhaps the boldest attempt at a pass I have seen in a long time.

    Okay, bring on the onslaught!
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. ctkellett

    ctkellett Karting

    Jan 2, 2004
    236
    Havertown PA
    Full Name:
    Chris K.
    I agree with you, I think that MS moved over on JPM on the exit of that corner. In fact, I think that MS clearly moved over on Trulli on the start of yesterdays GP, although he said in the post race meeting that he could have and chose not to. Speedvision clearly shows that he did in a replay.

    Chris
     
  4. cairns

    cairns Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2003
    416
    Potomac MD
    Full Name:
    George Williams
    Agreed. And let the flaming begin.....
     
  5. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    You call that slight angle over anything at all? Had MS wanted to block, when he saw Trulli passing JPM, MS could have jerked the wheel over, putting himself squarely in front of Trulli, Trulli would likely have then lifted a bit before deciding which side to pass MS on. If it was a 5-lap race, I guarantee he would have, and that would have been legal racing. But I think MS wisely decided to play it safe and not risk having Trulli drive up his a$$. Such calmness comes from confidence in your ability to pass him later in the race.
     
  6. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,283
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    Yes, Schumi did move over, however Schumi was ahead of him, and therefore allowed his one move to block. I did not see anything wrong with that.
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    False, in general. Passing someone "in the corner" is too damned late. The lead driver is already committed to his speed and line through the corner. In fact, what I saw was JPM passing MS because MS was braking in order to make the corner and JPM was not... and would never have made the corner even if MS had somehow pulled more left to leave a lane for JPM.

    With all that said, it did appear that Schumi could have pulled a bit tighter line through there... that he intentionally let his car run out further than necessary. I wish he hadn't, because I think JPM would have still gone agricultural, as he often does trying to make early passes... by braking way too late. But I think MS also wishes he hadn't... more on that...


    Or, as I said above, he was already committed to his line by the time JPM came flying by him by not braking in time for the corner... this of course, caught MS' attention such that he was looking to the right (at JPM) while navigating a left-hander... which, BTW, will consistently cause you to go right of your proper line... that's what I think happened... JPM's bold move in the middle of a corner distracted Schumi and caused him to go right a little.


    Bold? Or hopeless? As I said, I think he broke too late to make that corner. Its easy to pass someone in a corner by simply not braking for it... its just hard to come out of said corner on the track with any speed. And JPM does that a lot!
     
  9. ctkellett

    ctkellett Karting

    Jan 2, 2004
    236
    Havertown PA
    Full Name:
    Chris K.
    My point was that he claims that he did not do it. Forcing Trulli to check up on a start is dangerous and wrong.
     
  10. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Social Subscribed Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    50,812
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I think the FIA's decision not to penalize says everything we need to know. By them not penalizing MS there is a clear precedent what's accepted and not. Whether you like the rules or not, that is how the game is being played right now. I expect the FIA to rule with an even hand with whoever makes similar moves.

    As far as yesterday. One move is being defensive, it takes two to block.
     
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    73,162
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    In our kart racing series we refer to a 2/3 Rule. It is not enough to be "ahead" by inches into a corner!

    In order to require a driver to relinquish the preferred line, an overtaking car must be 2/3 ahead of the passed car before the car on the line is required to brake, and yield!

    We have LOTS of rubber swirl marks on my car, on the rear 1/3 area, of course!! :)

    Think about it. If you are not THAT FAR ahead into the corner, no way can you make it work on the exit, because the passed car is STILL THERE!!

    You pass ahead of, or out of a corner, not at the apex!!

    Speedy"Rubbin' is Racin'"308
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
    7,732
    Nova Scotia Canada
    Full Name:
    Neil
    And he didn't. He did not close the door on Trulli. He made him go inside a little, but that is hardly a block under any light.

    JM outside rally a few weeks ago is done and said in my books. FIA said it wasn't a problem. Commentators said it was clean and x-racers said it was fair. What else is there? Too bad JM couldn't finish this race, poor boy.
     
  14. LopeAlong

    LopeAlong Formula Junior

    Mar 29, 2004
    461
    West of St. Louis
    Full Name:
    Jim
    What you did not see in the replay was just before the outside move by JPM, he pulled just about even with MS on the left side. JPM then jerked hard right at MS. MS avoided and out-accelerated. That was when Whiny P. Montoya went to the outside and cut some grass. After deliberately trying to turn in on MS, I'm sure Michael didn't feel too keen on leaving any room for him on the outside! As Brian explained, JPM was probably carrying too much speed and would have ended up in the daisies anyway. This is typical Montoya - close my eyes and poke my nose in when I do not have position (please see 2003USGP and RB). Then piss and moan about an FIA conspiracy when I don't get my way. Montoya's dice with Kimi (was it last year?) for about half a lap side by side was the last flash of quality driving I have seen from the guy. As I mentioned on another thread, when JV calls him dangerous, you know he is pulling some silly s$$$ out there - more than we get to see.

    At the start MS "deked" Trulli with that slight move. I'm sure Michael saw how fast he was coming on and didn't want an intimate encounter like Ralph and Rubens. Fake a move and hope Trulli lifts long enough to beat him to the corner.
    Jim
     
  15. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    You're only seeing what you want to see, and you don't understand how racing works. MS had the racing line, it was his corner. This discussion has been beaten to death. You're wrong. Montoya was wrong. Move on.
     
  16. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,283
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

    About me not understanding racing? That's a hell of a statement to make, and I take offence to that. If you feel that this topic has been beaten to death, why did you bother reading the thread, and then respond to it?
     
  17. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    Be offended all you like, but had you bothered to read the previous pages of discussion about the move, you would have seen, by way of paramount evidence, who was in the right @ that corner. I replied because your statments are purporting a fallacy. Plain and simple. PS: have you ever gone for a pass on a car on the outside? I have ,and it was my responsability to make it clean; if I ended up on the dirt, that was my problem. If I was lucky enough to intimidate the other driver with my audacity, then that was his problem for not having the balls to hold his line. That's the "nuance" you fail to understand.
     
  18. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    They don't have to yield if you obviously have the advantage?
     
  19. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,283
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    I've read all of the discussion, and I have my own opinion. You obviously feel that your opinions are fact, and lash out at anyone who doesn't happen to agree with you. If racing was so black and white, why would they ever allow inquiries on anything. Maybe they should just hire you to make the calls seeing as your opinions are fact.

    P.S.: Does one have to race in a series to know about racing?
     
  20. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    The joys of edit.
     
  21. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    That's my point. JPM didn't have the advantage; he attempted to dive bomb MS on the outside, and then swereved into MS right before the apex in an attempt to intimidate him into lifting off and giving JPM the pass. MS didn't, and JPM ran out of road -- his fault for attempting an audacious move. JPM had every right to go for the pass, however, he expected MS simply to give him an A for effort, and then had the lack of tact to whine about it.
     
  22. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    Where do I send my resume? Anyway, your opinion is yours, and I reserve to hold mine in similarily exagurated esteem -- as you do. I'm not stating fact, however, there was a review of the incident, by the FIA, and no one was penazlied -- what does that tell you?

    There's a certain pragmatic understanding that comes with the experience of having done it yourself.
     
  23. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,283
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    Yes, my opinion is mine, and yours is yours. I just don't go around telling people that they don't understand something because they might happen to have a different opinion than mine. That can piss people off.

    Yes, the FIA made their call. And I disagree with it. Life goes on......
     
  24. Apex

    Apex Rookie

    Dec 1, 2003
    44
    Historical matter.. The point is exactly what???

    Depending on your POV and experience one can see what one supposes or presupposes. Most can agree IF it had not been MS the FIA would have taken a much closer view. Take for example if it were RS...

    Water over the damn some several weeks now. Look 4 more Willaims failures in the future as JPM demostrates further he is no test driver...cheers!
     
  25. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    Pot & kettle. You revived this topic, and in doing so, flew your opinion and its "factuality" in the face of everyone else's "opinions" who commented on it weeks ago; you believed that your personal perspective had somehow allowed you to elucidate a detail we had all missed, and while your use of language may not have been as stark as mine, your action was just as dismissive of the other participant's opinions. Life does indeed go on.
     
  26. ctkellett

    ctkellett Karting

    Jan 2, 2004
    236
    Havertown PA
    Full Name:
    Chris K.
     
  27. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,870
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    Not to be antagonistic, what would JPM have had to do that would MAKE MS move over (assuming MS was following the rules).
     
  28. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
    5,991
    Westchester, NY
    Full Name:
    Paul
    OK, Montoya may have been right, maybe M.Schumacher was right. If Montoya says that Michael was out of line, then why did Montoya do it to Ralf a few corners later?

    What bothers me more is why JPM became a non-factor in the race. He didn't challenge Michael after the first lap, MS quickly pulled away and Michael ended up spanking the whole field at Imola, just as he did in Spain.

    Until MS is beaten fair and square on a somewhat consistent basis (outdriven, not a retirement for mechanic reasons) the rest of the field, to quote Tony Soprano, needs to "SHUT THE **** UP"
     

Share This Page