Mooney down in Angel Fire, no survivors | FerrariChat

Mooney down in Angel Fire, no survivors

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by docmirror, Mar 4, 2013.

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  1. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    #1 docmirror, Mar 4, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
    Lost an acquaintance Sunday. John and I crossed paths a few times in aviation and engineering. Rampant speculation will start, but this appears to be strictly get-home-itis on Johns part. Take off into a +40kt crosswind with gusts to 50kts.

    4 Texans killed in New Mexico plane crash | abc13.com

    metar for the date/time: METAR KAXX 032035Z AUTO 24034G45KT 10SM CLR 08/M08 A2992
    RMK AO2 T00781083=
     
  2. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    #2 Tcar, Mar 4, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
    Very, very sad, and avoidable.

    I've flown in and our of Angel Fire several times (as pax) years ago... and skied there.

    Wind can be incredible there... blows your car all over the highway, ditto your plane.

    Had a cabin at Valle Escondido, just a few miles down 64 toward Taos.


    Do you know what kind of plane?
     
  3. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Angel Fire usually appears in many Top 10 lists for challenging airports. It doesn't have to be challenging, but it becomes that way with too much of the predominant crosswinds, low vis, and/or density altitude. I have flown in and out of Angel Fire 10+ times. One reason we started going to Taos is because I was making the "no go" decision over 25% of the time with Angel Fire. Taos doesn't face most of the same challenges as Angel Fire.
     
  4. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
    3,477
    potomac
    Very sad,especially with people so young and a child. I really feel for the poor dad. But 50 knot cross winds! You also wonder about wind shear. It will be interesting to see the official accident report After the investigation is done.
     
  5. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    And Taos is only about 20 miles away.
     
  6. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    M20E, short fuselage, 200HP NA, retract.

    We all will second guess, me included but with that kind of wind, I would not have gone with 4 people on board. I might have gone with two, but the lesser weight makes getting blown off the side of the runway more likely. I don't know what the max demonstrated xwind component on the Mooney is, but I'm sure that's at or near the top.
     
  7. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    I've been into Angel Fire twice, and although I didn't have any issues, I've also forsaken it for Taos. The people are very friendly, good service, easy drive to skiing and it's 50 times safer.

    I think this pilot had a cabin or friends nearby, but still there's no reason you can't do Taos and drive a half hour.
     
  8. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    Nov 30, 2003
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    AirNav says the runway at Angel Fire is 17/35.
    I assume the Mooney took off on 17 with the winds out of 240 at 34 kts (39.1 mph) gusting to 45 kts (51.8 mph)
    That's a 70 degree xwind angle.

    .
     
  9. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    that is still up to a 42 kt crosswind component. my 400 has demonstrated limit of 23 kts, not sure the Mooney would be much different. 75% of the time I landed at Angel Fire you had a crosswind from west.
     
  10. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    After a little more digging, it appears he got airborne ok, and wasn't affected by the xwind off the runway. Which would indicate he got involved with the rotor coming off the peaks to the west.

    I don't know if there is anywhere 'good' to head after takeoff from there in high winds. I can't recall what I did when I left, but prolly just stayed straight south.
     
  11. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I think best is head north to Eagle Nest and back gaining altitude. South is rising terrain although in my plane no issues meeting departure requirements. I don't like to cross those ranges within 2,000 feet. I had buddy in 210 that crossed west range 1500 over (Robert Johnson from DFW Pilots) and it threw the plane 90 degree bank before he caught.
     
  12. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 16, 2012
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    4 people (even with one or two smaller individuals), fuel, and baggage (you don't go skiing with an overnight bag) also means this airplane was very near or at gross.

    Very sad, and a reminder to us all.
     
  13. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    South is the only way that is descending terrain. It drains the Aqua Fria valley. North puts you into the rotor over the Toas peak. The only benefit that way is staying in the valley with the highway going through there. I might make one climbing loop direct over the field, but I'm pretty sure I went due south, then after climbing plenty turned east.

    I was solo and it was cold so I was going up plenty coming out of the airport. I think the best idea is to just stay the hell out of there, or limit the winds to something moderate of 15kts or so.
     
  14. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Nov 29, 2003
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    What flying that I did here in the mountains on the west coast taught me some hard lessons and one has to think about the wind on every flight and where you are as far as terrain is considered. It can be your friend on the weather side of a rise and a deadly enemy on the lee side of a ridge where down drafts and rotors have no respect for an airplane of any size. I was barely successful getting into an airport in Redding, California during a violent cold front and rain storm. When we left several days later during climb out I happened to look in the brush far to the side of the runway and there was the wreckage of a Swift that was victim to the crosswind of the same storm. The gang at Enterprise airport never mentioned it when we were there and I learned about it after a phone call to them after our return. Flying in mountainous country should be carefully studied before flying in it, even on sunny days.
     
  15. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2006
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    Aint that the truth. Very sad story..
     
  16. alexD

    alexD F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2006
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    pilot's fb page: https://www.facebook.com/Tablor?fref=ts

    "Just updated my logbook and am happy to report I've crossed a milestone - 510.9 hours total time. Looking forward to the next 500!"

    Sad.
     
  17. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    what was the pilot thinking ?....

    unstable winds, a 200 HP engine NA AT SEA LEVEL, payload at or approaching limits... he did not have a single thing going for him in his favor...

    field elevation is 8300'... the engine being normally asperated was not making full power at that altitude, his climb ability was minimal even under ideal conditions, throw in serious wind shear and he had essentially nothing to work with,

    with wind shear a plane can be flying at good numbers, while a second later the numbers can be all wrong, it takes a lot of power to maintain and altitude AGL to get though, throw in a few mountains to stir the wind up even more, the enviornment was a definite no go, and a HELL NO in that Mooney... conditions exceeded that plane's capabilities...

    gusting cross winds are more about maintaining control while on the ground, a gust of wind can put a plane into numbers where it can fly, as fast as a gust comes on it can leave, causing the airplane not to have enough speed to fly... a plane needs power to accelerate quickly to a flying speed not including the gust... which is why planes have limits for crosswinds, the plane runs out of contols to maintain direction...
     
  18. docmirror

    docmirror Formula Junior

    May 6, 2004
    781
    Ft Worth TX
    Update: Victims of Angel Fire crash identified - The Taos News: News

    Well, my theory is shot to hell. Looks like he was going off 17, and went down 500 yards south of the end or the runway. this is prolly just what I would have done in the same situation.

    Makes me glad I've got an extra 40HP from stock. I still would never have gone with 4 people and that kind of wind out of that airport. I would have gone solo or with two on, but never with 4.
     
  19. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    you may be right after you get over the rising terrain off the runway, but once you get in that valley less turning options than from airport north to Eagle. also to meet the DP in a 110 kt climb you need 970 fpm. easy in the 400, but not in many piston planes.
     
  20. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    Are we speculating that this accident was due to lack of climb performance, or rather from loss of control due to the crosswind or wind gusts just past the end of the runway?

    The report above seems to indicate it was down only a quarter of a mile from the end of the runway...
     
  21. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I don't have a clue, I think if crosswind problem the accident would have been on the runway. Also with that brisk of a crosswind once you successfully got off and slewed into it climb shouldn't have been a problem. I suspect something along lines engine problems and climb stall.

    There is highway south of field, wonder what percentage of take off fatalities would have been saved if every pilot didn't fight it and just nosed over making the best of what they could. I like climbing between vX and vY, there is good theory if climbing at vX on takeoff then by the time the engine goes out and you react it is too late to nose over and recover.
     
  22. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
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    I agree about the crosswind issue - that would likely have been within the length of the runway if it were this alone...but a quarter of a mile past the runway is only seconds, and could hardly have been normal climb (crosswind or not) and terrain avoidance.

    I am starting to wonder if this were not just as simple as an overloaded plane, pulled up into flight without airspeed enough (and in a Xwind), and then just stalled/mushed in moments later?
     
  23. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Angel Fire is a long nice runway that jets land on. I'm usually around 400-500 feet by the time I cross the runway end.
     
  24. alum04org

    alum04org F1 Rookie
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    Apr 23, 2009
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    RIP to victims. But I feel for the Father (and Mother) who lost both their children and only grandchild. Sad.

    And the airport manager, too.
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    There was a 6 person 'fatal' into Taos, many years ago, took some Houston flight instructors, as well as Miss Rockwear........

    Drugs and bad judgement........mountains no place to play.

    RIP to them all...I lost a close family friend to a return leg of a ski trip.
    Everyone is tired.....
     

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