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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Bob Zambelli, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    There seems to be a number of myths regarding the current ownership of 5111GT, but as far as I have read, it has been in Spanish hands since around 2008. Does anyone know any different?
     
  2. Garincha

    Garincha Rookie

    Jun 14, 2019
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    Garry Lanicker
    I have the same information;)
     
  3. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Apr 5, 2010
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    Timothy Russell
    That could well be right, I have it sold to Spain in 2011 but it could have just as easily been 2008. IIRC, Marcel said the original media report in 2008 of a 5111GT sale at a record level was incorrect but never expanded on whether it hadn't actually sold or whether it was only wrong in detail.
     
  4. amc

    amc Karting

    Apr 9, 2009
    236
    old school
    DO all GTO have the same size windshield?
    how about the back window?
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #455 miurasv, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    3387GT restored to original body details as it was at the 250 GTO's race debut at Sebring, 1962.

    See here and here.

    Looking forward to seeing some pics of the rest of the car including the rear spoiler.
     
  6. amc

    amc Karting

    Apr 9, 2009
    236
    old school
    Question:
    Why does GTO have an additional set of coil springs on the dampers?
    Is it interchangeable with the 250 Lusso?
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Steven Robertson
    #457 miurasv, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
    The front susension of the 250 GTO has a heavier coil spring between the wishbones attached to the lower wishbone and the chassis and a second lighter spring coiled around the shock absorber which is attached to and above the upper wishbone and the chassis. I don't think the Lusso has a spring coiled around the shock absorber attached to and above the upper wishbone and the chassis.
     
  8. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    282

    When the coil spring is used, it is on the rear shock not the front
     
  9. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    282
    Oops
    I was wrong, getting too old !!
     
  10. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    282
    I have just gotten out of bed to re check my info.
    To be clear. The rear shock on some gto cars
    Had a light weight coil spring attached like the front It was not on all the cars that I have
    observed.
     
  11. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    GTO's were built with "helper" springs on BOTH the front and rear. The front helper spring was Part # 539/65238 and the rear was Part # 539/600406. The fronts were fairly stiff, at 155 kg load rating compared to the "regular" front spring at 200 kg. While the rear helpers were quite soft at only 12 kg compared to the rear leafs at 220 kg. As to why, it would seem this was a way to continue to "tune" the chassis by changing overall spring rates.
     
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  12. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Steven Robertson
    Do the 330 cars 3765 and 4561 have the spring around the shock absorber on the front?
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Steven Robertson
  14. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: 3765 has the EXACT same helper springs front and rear. I do not know about 4561, but suspect it is the same. The other four 330 LM's have the same front helper spring, but Part # 574/600525 rear helper springs with an increased load rating of 60 kg. I suspect to handle a little more fuel load and weight.
     
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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #465 miurasv, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    Yes, not all 250 GTOs have the helper/assister spring on the rear shock. 3757GT does not have one. Although it had a platform for one, the Haynes 250 GTO Manual on this car states that no GTO ran in period with the spring, and is too stiff with it fitted. The Bluemel/Pourret 250 GTO book states that the rear shock spring reference number 600406 was sometimes omitted as there were differences of opinion on its value.

    Cutaway of 3757GT from the Haynes 250 GTO Manual.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: They may not have them now or raced that way in period, but they WERE built with both front and rear helper springs.
     
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  17. amc

    amc Karting

    Apr 9, 2009
    236
    old school
    no wonder the GTO sink down while raced, and transfer some of the mass to tha back axle
     
  18. stevewak

    stevewak Rookie

    Jul 31, 2006
    42
    UK
    Ducking, as I might br wrong, but surely as the 250 GT series had leaf springs and live axles adding the 'helper' springs was a way of getting more advanced coil-spring suspension onto a proper racing car with parts that were not homologated in the first place. Jaguar and (marginally) Aston set-ups more sophisticated.
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #469 miurasv, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
    It was said that the rear suspension of the 250 GTO was too stiff when using the coil springs, and yet the rear suspension of road cars, the 250 Lusso and 330 GT 2+2 used leaf springs and telescopic shock absorbers with the coil springs.
     
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  20. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Steve: That is just not the case. A spring with a 12 kg load rating is VERY SOFT. It would have a very minor effect on handling. My best guess is that it probably helped support the car when the fuel tank was full. We run both the front and rear helper springs and have no issues racing.
     
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  21. amc

    amc Karting

    Apr 9, 2009
    236
    old school
    so the leafs are identical to SWB ones?
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Thank you for your replies, Dyke. Of course I'm not saying you're wrong, and I do know that I shouldn't believe everything I read, however a number of the 250 GTO books say that they were designed/built with rear shock absorbers only with the facility to add the compensating/anti tramp helical springs. The late David Clarke, founder of Graypaul in the UK, who restored a number of GTOs, and owned 3869 himself, said in his 250 GTO book that they were rarely used, going on to say Maranello Concessionaires tried them only once at Mallory Park on John Surtees' car.

    Charles Knill-Jones in the Haynes Manual says that the GTO was designed with rear shock absorbers with a platform for a coil spring as they were what was available on the shelf at Koni. He effectively says that people add them, as they see the platform for the coil springs, and then wrongly think the car should have the coils springs. Confusingly, the same book, as do other books, include the springs in the specification of the rear suspension, as does the Ferrari web site.

    David Piper said the GTO was homologated with coil springs and further says that he used stiffer springs on his car, whilst removing one of the leaf springs, but he wasn't clear as to whether his GTO came supplied new with the coil springs.

    Do any of the 250 GTO (or 330LM) build sheets you have include the coil spring, part number 539/600406, in the spec? I know 3607 and 4153 do not.
     
  23. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran
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    romano schwabel
    same as the 250 GT/E 3.serie
     
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  24. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Steve: The build sheets for BOTH 3607 and 4153 DO LIST the helper springs (look at the bottom of the Chassis page). Every GTO build sheet I have ( and I have most of them) shows the cars WERE built with these springs. Honestly, please don't fall for the old adage of believing everything you see in print. You can generally trust Factory Documents( but not always), but as for books and magazine articles, be very careful.
     
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  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Thank you, Dyke. You are of course correct. My mistake. I looked at the wrong place further up the build sheets where it lists the shock absorbers - Ammortizzatori. I have some build sheets for another GTO which also list the helper springs. I'm putting my books on Ebay, ha. If you have them, out of interest, do the build sheets for 3757 and 3869 include the helper springs?
     

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