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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Bob Zambelli, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    I was told that the blocking/rectangle for rear lights on GTOs was a Le Mans regulation-specific thing.
    The explanation I was given was that ACO/LM required this so that the rear lights/lamps would be visible from the side profile.
     
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  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #577 miurasv, Apr 30, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
    I remember we discussed this a little while back. 3445, 3705 and 3765 also have the block IIRC. There were other GTOs (3387) at LM '62 that did not have the lights mounted on the rectangle.
     
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  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #578 miurasv, May 1, 2020
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    David Piper's initial GTO, RHD 3767GT, may well have been the first 250 GTO to have received the integrated rear spoiler. From what I have read, 3769GT, although a higher chassis number than 3767GT, was delivered earlier than 3767GT, but from a few pictures I've seen, it looks like it initially may have had a riveted rear spoiler.
     
  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    3767 GT came off the assembly line 20 July 1962.
    3769 GT came off the assembly line 15 June 1962.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    I wonder marcel:
    3767 came off the line later than 3769? more than 5 weeks, even with lower VIN
     
  6. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    I can't speak to the specifics but if there's one thing I've learned from Marcel's posts- chassis numbers were not (always) completed in sequence.
    So much so that it is misleading to think of them as 'order of completion'. He has shown evidence of this many, many times.
     
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  7. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Not surprising at all, since Chassis Numbers were possibly issued early on, perhaps even before the cars final assembly had begun or was finished and some "special" clients may have had access to theirs sooner than others, due to upcoming race schedule, etc.

    Or perhaps something happened during the construction of a specific car, like mechanical failures or crash during testing, etc..., causing extended delivery delays ?

    Besides, don't forget that even as late as 365 GTB/4 production timeline, cars were constructed in "batches" (365 GTB/4s maybe 50-200 cars per "batch"), not in a linear assembly-line schedule as they're made today or back then by most large scale manufacturers.

    And as Dave ("readplays") noted, this has been shown before and things at the Factory were probably even more haphazard in the '50s & early '60s, especially with smaller "production" runs intended for competition (only).

    OTOH, I was never there, so above is just me offering limited experience guessing. :rolleyes:
     
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  8. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Chassis numbers were assigned when the frames were ordered. The chassis builders (Vaccari) knew the number of each chassis when they were building it, and recorded it in their records.
     
  9. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Thank you Dyke,
    for confirming my “suspicions”.
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Yes, correct.
    One also has to keep in mind that 3767 GT is a RHD car, whereas 3769 GT is a LHD car and usually ALL RHD cars (no matter if 250 GTO or anything else) are/were (far) behind "regular" LHD production and sequence.
    As said many many times before, we live in 2020 right now and please do NOT try to apply our modern, (almost) perfect standards, systems and expectations, where everything is robotized, automated, excel-sheet organized etc.
    In the entire year 1962 the factory built a total of 493 cars which more or less is 2 cars per working day. And all by hand. Think about that.

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    thank you marcel for this statement
    I only wondered because of those about 5 weeks for following VIN´S
     
  12. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    Both "250 GTO" books, resp. by Anthony Pritchard and by Keith Bluemel / Jess Pourret, mention "original sale dates", probably from the same source, as July 26th, 1962 for 3767 GT and June 13th, 1962 for 3769GT.
    It's not explained how the sale dates relate to the production process (order, delivery, whatever) but it's worth (or not) noting that for 3769 GT the reported sale date is before the end of assembly.
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Of course, that is absolutely normal. People order an object (in this case an automobile), sign a purchase contract, pay (sometimes) and then days, weeks, months or years later the object is finally completed and comes off the assembly line or production facility and is eventually delivered to the buyer.
    As is well known in these Ferrari circles here, sometimes we get the highly desired automobile 18 or more months later. It has always been like this.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  14. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #589 Marcel Massini, May 2, 2020
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
    To give you guys a better idea:

    15 June 1962 was a Friday.
    On that day just two new Ferraris came off the assembly line:
    Chassis #3629 GT which is a LHD 250 GTE 2+2 Coupé Pininfarina (for Crepaldi in Milan).
    Chassis #3769 GT which is a LHD 250 GTO Berlinetta Scaglietti (for Fernand Tavano in France).

    6 July 1962 was a Friday:
    On that day three new Ferraris came off the assembly line:
    Chassis #3559 SA which is a LHD 400 Superamerica Coupé Pininfarina (for Chinetti in USA).
    Chassis #3651 GT which is a LHD 250 GTE 2+2 Coupé Pininfarina.
    Chassis #3729 GT which is a RHD 250 GTO Berlinetta Scaglietti (for Roy Salvadori in UK)

    13 July 1962 was a Friday:
    On that day three new Ferraris came off the assembly line:
    Chassis #3577 GT which is a LHD 250 GT SWB Berlinetta Scaglietti (for Malagò in Rom).
    Chassis #3685 GT which is a LHD 250 GTE 2+2 Coupé Pininfarina (for Crepaldi in Milan).
    Chassis #3697 GT which is a LHD 250 GTE 2+2 Coupé Pininfarina (for Fontanella in Torino).

    20 July 1962 was a Friday:
    On that day just two new Ferraris came off the assembly line:
    Chassis #3711 GT which is a LHD 250 GTE 2+2 Coupé Pininfarina (for Chinetti in USA).
    Chassis #3767 GT which is a RHD 250 GTO Berlinetta (for David Piper in the UK).

    Marcel Massini
     
  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #590 miurasv, May 2, 2020
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    Does anyone have a clear picture of 3767GT's (not 4491GT) rear spoiler when Piper owned it in which it can be seen whether the spoiler is integrated or riveted? Thanks in advance.
     
  16. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    Although they are small, in the books I mentioned in post #587 there are pictures taken in November and December 1962 in South Africa and Angola where the rear spoiler seems to be integrated, since its shape continues on the rear wings around the rear lights.
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Thanks, I have those books. Just wanted to make sure. What is your opinion on 3769GT's rear spoiler in the pic below taken at Le Mans, 1962?

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  18. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

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    Seems to be an add-on on this picture... reading again the books, it's indeed difficult to understand the logic of why some cars have the integrated spoiler and some the added one: while 3767 GT looks like having an integrated spoiler, 3769, 3809 and 3869 seem to have the added spoiler while 3851 seems to have the integrated one...
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    A majority of 250 GTO's were crashed or at least damaged. Don't forget that these cars were mere tools to win next Sunday's race. They were raced, damaged, repaired, raced again, damaged again, and on and on. Every few weeks or sometimes more than once during the same weekend. No two GTO's are identical (from birth). That's exactly why one can never have enough photos.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  20. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #595 miurasv, May 2, 2020
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    Yes, 3769GT has a riveted spoiler, as it has today.

    3809GT, as it is today, was renumbered by the factory from 3527GT and was actually completed on 18th May, 1962, and the GTO that raced at the Nurburgring 1000 KM on 27th May, 1962 by Koechert/Maglioli with number 49, which is why it has the body features of an early 250 GTO and 3809GT completed on 23rd August, 1962 was renumbered by the factory to 3527GT, which is why 3527GT, as delivered new with this number, and as it is today, has the body features of a late 250 GTO. Fascinating stuff which makes these 2 GTOs more interesting!!!

    RHD 3869GT has an integrated spoiler as pictured below at the London Motor Show.

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    So, it seems 3767GT was the first 250 GTO to receive the integrated spoiler, and not 3757GT as written in a number of places.
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #596 miurasv, May 2, 2020
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    My understanding, to date, as to why 250 GTOs 3527GT and 3809GT were renumbered.

    250 GTO 3527GT was completed by Ferrari on the 18th May, 1962 and sold to Austrian Gotfried Koechert, who raced it at the Nurburgring 1000 km with Umberto Maglioli with number 49 on 27th May, 1962, where it did not finish (due to a stated ignition or electrical problem?). The car was not stated to have received any body damage. 3527GT had the body features of an early 250 GTO. See pics below for body details.

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    Swiss citizen Kalman von Czasy ordered a new 250 GTO, and was allotted factory chassis number 3809GT which, naturally, would take a few months for the car to be completed. The build for the car started, and in the mean time in July, 1962 Gotfried Koechert returned his 250 GTO, 3527GT, to the factory.

    It was then decided, rather than wait for von Czasy's new GTO to be finished, to sell and deliver to him the slightly used 3527GT as a new car, and fulfil his order where the chassis number of this GTO was changed to the number that von Czasy had been allotted for the new GTO that he had ordered, 3809GT. von Czasy took delivery of 3527GT, now number changed by the factory to 3809GT in July, 1962.

    The new GTO that von Czasy had actually ordered was completed at the factory on 23rd August, 1962. As the number 3809GT had now been given to the GTO then owned by von Czasy, it was decided to give this brand new 250 GTO, with all the body features of a late 250 GTO such as the integrated rear spoiler, the earlier number 3527GT, and was sold to Belgian Lucien Bianchi in September, 1962 via Ecurie Francorchamps who raced it first at the 1962 Tour de France, where he finished 7th OA.
     
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  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    3527 GT was sold by the factory 19 May 1962. It was registered 21 May 1962 on Italian license plates of Modena "MO 76800" in the name of Nandino Benatti, born on the 18th October 1912 in Campogalliano, Italy, resident at Via Crespellani 122 in Modena. Must have been a man of straw for Köchert. The registration dox were cancelled 5 October 1962 due to export from Italy.

    Marcel Massini

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  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    3809 GT was sold by the factory 9 July 1962. It was registered 10 July 1962 on Modena license plates "MO 78595" in the name of Ornello Ascari, born on the 22 September 1936 in Campogalliano, Italy, resident at Via Santa Eufemia 66 in Modena. Must have been a man of straw for Kalman Von Csazy.

    Marcel Massini

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  24. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Pictured at the Nurburgring 1000 KM on 19th May, 1963.
     
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