More information re DCT - extra heat exchanger added to 2012-2014 cars | FerrariChat

More information re DCT - extra heat exchanger added to 2012-2014 cars

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by 4th_gear, Feb 28, 2018.

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  1. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    One of my main beefs when discussing DCT issues is the general lack of concrete (visual) verification on the actual parts of the DCT we are discussing. It was recently reported that later cars 2012...etc, were installed with an extra heat exchanger.

    I was messing about with the rear undertray of my 2013 Cali30 for an unrelated reason and noticed an object behind the DCT that looked like an oil heat exchanger. So I looked it up and it is indeed the extra heat exchanger. I verified this by looking up the part from part suppliers, Scuderia and Eurospares.

    Here's a photo of the area from under my car, showing the lower section of the heat exchanger (see the yellow label text).


    When I tried to locate this part on Ricambi, I was unable to locate it. It is not in the Ricambi America catalogue for unknown reason(s). Perhaps Daniel from Ricambi America can look into this. The part is however shown on Scuderia and Eurospares, and here is information from those websites that prove this part was added to cars from MY 2012-2014.




    There is also a smaller transmission oil heat exchanger which is on all the Cali models and the 458 as well. As you see, it's significantly smaller.




    The oil circulating inside the DCT draws the heat away from the DCT parts, the heated oil is in turn, circulated to the (2) heat exchangers where the oil is cooled by water coolant which is taken back to a radiator mounted at the front of the car. The cooled oil is returned to cool the DCT. Pre-2012 cars apparently did not feature the 2nd heat exchanger.


    If you are also wondering about other DCT issues, we already know from the earlier message posted by Vic (vjd3) that there were on occasion, problems caused by internal wiring plastic clips (zip ties, tie-wraps) that degraded and abraded the wiring of the speed sensors, causing shorts. Here's the photo that Vic had posted of the clips. This problem was also supposed to have been fixed in later cars, probably the MY2-12-2014 cars.

     
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  2. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Michael
    ADDITIONAL QUALIFICATION - according to the Eurospares website, the smaller heat exchanger found on all models of the pre CaliT models is also spec'd on the 458 Challenge, not all 458 models.

    I find this interesting because the 458 Challenge is a racing track-only car so its DCT would definitely get used at high speeds with a lot of hard downshifts, and hard upshifts; all at high engine RPM, up to 9000 rpm unlike the 8000 rpm redline of the NA Cali's engine. So why does the 458 Challenge only rely on a small DCT oil heat exchanger?

    I suspect it has to do with 2 possibilities: 1) it has 2 DCT coolant radiators, apparently at the rear, near the DCT and 2) the car is driven at high speeds so radiator cooling is more effective.

    FWIW, the Cali's radiator looks like a 2-layer design, so its surface area is potentially significantly bigger than its physical dimensions would suggest. It is also mounted at the front, not at the rear like the 458 Challenge's. I suppose the factory could have made a bigger radiator as a MY 2012-2014 fix for their DCT heat concerns, but they didn't. Instead, they added an extra heat exchanger to feed the existing radiator.

    Hopefully, that means the radiator is UP TO THE TASK! ...let us pray. :rolleyes:


    Here is a diagram showing its location on the 458 Challenge...

     
  3. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Michael
    SORRY, the forum does not allow edits past 10 minutes of posting a message.

    I was curious and looked into why the 458 Challenge is different from regular 458s and has an oil heat exchanger. Well, it looks like all the 458 models, Challenge, Italia, Spider..etc. do not use water as coolant in their DCT radiators, they all only use oil. Furthermore, the non-Challenge 458 models send their DCT oil from the DCT directly through the radiators. So the radiators are oil radiators not water radiators. Here's the DCT oil radiator plumbing... no heat exchanger.




    I can see why the Cali uses an oil-water heat exchanger, since its radiator is at the front of the car and water is easier and faster to pump a longer distance than is oil. However, this does not explain why the 458 Challenge needs an oil-oil heat exchanger as all 458 models seem to use the same oil radiators, apparently located at the location in the rear.

    Perhaps the Challenge radiator uses a different oil which is not compatible with DCT oil and thus needs to exchange heat with the radiator oil. The Challenge, as a bare-bones race car, also has more space in the engine bay to accommodate the heat exchanger and extra plumbing.

    It's a curious design difference between the 458 Challenge and its siblings. I think I'll pose the question to the experts on the Challenge/GT Cars forum.
     
  4. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Michael
    Just noticed another detail... the location of the smaller oil heat exchanger. The exchanger has 4 hose connections so some of the coolant lines for the exchanger appear to be missing in the diagram but it does show the 2 lines, for oil coming in and going back to the DCT. The other 2 lines for the water coolant which would need to somehow connect to the radiator are not shown.

    The radiator is also shown with 2 lines going all the way back to the DCT. The heat exchanger appears to be placed in the front, near the radiator, probably because the coolant can stay cooler, recirculate more quickly. Otherwise, why waste all that plumbing send oil to and back from the front of the car?

    Finally, the fact that the radiator also has 2 lines to the DCT implies there are other part(s) of the DCT which receive coolant directly from the radiator, without the need for an external oil heat exchanger.

     
  5. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    Another thing that I wonder is what changed in he system from 2014 to 2015. I have yet to hear of a DCT issue in a Cali T only in 14 and older where mid 12 and older ( before second heat exchanger) is far worse at occurring.

    It appears that cooling would be the issue and as you surmise at lower speed. Could it be possible the transmission cooling system was beefed up significantly in the Cali T? None the less the info you have provided gives us a clue on how to possibly "update" earlier cars.
     
  6. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    I was probably one of the first to mention this, Only because,I happen to find out about this in 2012 when I was having DCT replacements. The dealer only reluctantly gave up this info. I was trying to better understand the DCT problem of my Cali.

    I asked him about installing the rear heat exchanger but he never got back to me. I’m sure that as a dealer he did contact the factory. They probably decided not to update my car because then they might have to do that for all the cars. And perhaps the update would have involved replacing other parts which would make it quite expensive than a simple install.

    Anyway, another owner was also experiencing that his DCT was running hot. This Fchatter decided to replace the original radiator with one with greater cooling capacity. This is probably a pretty good solution. Too bad I didn’t think about that back then in 2012!

    (BTW nice write up 4th Gear)
     
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  7. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
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    Also I think it would be nice to have a display of the DCT fluid temp which could be shown on the digital instrument display. Not just for the Cali but for all the cars since they all use a very expensive box.

    Also hope that the Portofino has a oil pressure display like all the other FCars. I was upset when I discovered my Cali lacked oil pressure info. Perhaps someone at Ferrari just forgot to include this display.
     
  8. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Yep, while it's nice to appreciate the sexy Italian aesthetics, some additional gauges would have been very useful and we wouldn't have to be guessing and wondering, like we are doing now. In the old days, serious sports cars always featured a plethora of useful gauges.

    These cars were actually very high performance vehicles using bleeding edge technologies. The Cali was the de facto test platform for many new technologies for Ferrari. Early adopters represented a form of long term early testers for these nascent technologies and such displays would have been prudent to provide. For the PF, its higher performance turbo engine would also place the highest torque demands to-date, 760Nm peak, on the 7DCL750 which is technically only spec'd for 750Nm, if it is indeed the DCT being used.

    I wonder if the PF's ECUs may actually be monitoring the DCT and managing torque delivery in response.
     
  9. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    That's a very good question. Of course, even though you have been collecting data on how many DCT issues each MY car may have experienced, your source of data is primarily limited to FChat and anecdotal. It would help if there were comprehensive official numbers.

    Of course, none of that prevents you from looking at what Ferrari put on the CaliT vs. its older siblings, and making some intelligent inferences. I might have a look at this as well if I get the chance but since I don't own or plan to buy a CaliT, I would only do it out of curiosity and unfortunately I have a number of other, more urgent "projects" vying for my attention.

    Have a look at the parts diagrams on the Ricambi, Scuderia, Eurospares...etc. websites. There are also other Ferrari car part suppliers that provide varying degrees of informative diagrams and schematics online. Some of the European ones describe "exotic parts" not listed elsewhere.
     
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  10. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    Yes unfortunately the only actual data I have is limited to here one other automotive forum and real life. Interestingly enough the 2010 cars seem to have the worst issue due to the limited data I have collected.

    Also seems the mid 2012 and up recover much better after a failure most times after a cooling off period.

    The most likely candidate seems to be heat, and the info you've shared helps figure out the progression Ferrari and Getrag have followed to solve the problem. Honestly the early cars are wonderful with the exception of the DCT failures.
     
  11. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Heat *IS* the primary factor affecting the operation of DCTs. Therefore, improving or just preserving the operation of DCTs involve the dissipation of heat. The dissipation of heat relies on the efficiency of cooling method(s) and equipment.

    One aspect of this is the surface area of cooling. Another is the efficiency of heat transference between coolants.

    Surface area involves the size of cooling devices which is limited by space and technology, not well within our personal control. Efficiency of heat transfer between coolant is a different matter. In the Cali, heat goes from METAL -> OIL -> WATER -> AIR. The amount of air coolant is under our control. So make sure air coolant is vigorously circulated through the radiator.

    Avoid idling or driving the car in traffic jams, especially in hot humid weather. Try to drive it briskly on open roads, and try to park it in a cool spot or well-ventilated area afterwards. I always pop the hood when I get home. I picked up this habit from driving my BMWs, which had a habit of cooking, self-destroying their plastic radiators, water pumps, radiator hoses leading to catastrophic loss of coolant just as I step on the gas, at high speeds.

    I was lucky with my BMWs, one blew up its water pump just as I pulled into my service garage, the other one blew up its radiator hose on a street, allowing me to stop before damaging the engine. Its radiator also started leaking just before I started regularly inspecting it for leaks so I swapped the radiator before it blew up (and killed the engine).

    Stay away from heat if you can! ;) The effects of heat on machinery is a bit like the effects inflammation on our bodies.
     
  12. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
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    #12 MalibuGuy, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
    Ever hear about the Hot Box. I believe this is what it is called.

    It’s a testing set up designed to simulate stop and go traffic temperatures.

    Usually it’s conducted in a warm climate such as the desert and the car is left to idle within an walled off enclosure to simulate the worst traffic jam.

    But this may not have revealed the 2009-2012 Cali DCT flaws. Why? I theorize that the internal temp of the DCT rises quickly with load and RPM. Neither are reproduced by idling

    But my point is that Ferrari and other sports cars are designed for operation in stop and go traffic.

    Decades ago the vintage Ferrari’s would not do well in these conditions
     
  13. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    #13 MalibuGuy, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
    I don’t agree that the Cali is as wonderful as you state. Why because a DCT failure is an expensive repair and the fact that a proven way to address cooling isn’t offered.

    I would like to see someone offer a fix and the simplest would be to swap in a better front radiator.

    The other issue which I experienced is premature variation failure. Premature Variator failure is almost unheard of in dry sumo F cars. ( 360 modena had a weak mounting bolt which was recalled. But this had nothing to do with the variator itself.)

    All 4 of my Cali variators failed due to inadequate oil delivery at start up. The factory even made me change the oil three times before they approved the replacement. It’s an engine out 20k repair. Mine was covered under warranty.

    The wet sump is something unfamiliar for Ferrari since all the current range use dry sump
    And have so for decades.

    That is not to say that wet sump is inherently a bad thing. It’s just that Ferrari didn’t have a lot of development time and experience with the modern V8 Cali engine.

    Search the Maserati forums and you will see threads about variator failures too. Maserati fixed things by improving their oil cooling plumbing and pumping.

    And yes the variator in the Cali is exactly the same part as in the the dry sump cars. So it’s not the part but the Ferrari wet sump.
     
  14. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    #14 4th_gear, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
    My answer would be NO and YES.

    NO, I have not heard of the term "hot box" as regards hot weather testing but YES, of course I know they do hot weather testing.

    I do understand your point but I think you may be mistaken. IMO, they did hot weather testing to see how the car "would perform" under hot idling and hot running conditions. They did not do the testing to see how much hot weather conditions the DCT would tolerate BEFORE IT FAILS, which would otherwise be classed as "destructive testing".

    The only way Ferrari could have predicted DCT failure is if they run cars under controlled hot conditions until their DCTs failed. This is normally how such predictive tests are conducted.

    AFAIK, the DCT failures in the Cali, 458, FF, F12, AMG SLS...etc. did not occur immediately with new cars. They occurred after some mileage was recorded. So that implies there was probably cumulative degradation of DCT component(s). I don't think the "hot box" scenario would involve enough mileage or number of test vehicles to provide sufficient data to predict when heat-related failures would occur.

    Ferrari probably relied on lab test data from Getrag regarding reliability of the DCT under Getrag's recommended operating conditions for the DCT and then calculated the amount of cooling they needed to provide to maintain those conditions. Judging by the fact that they had to add a heat exchanger, their original cooling provisions were obviously inadequate for actual driving conditions when the cars came to market. The original design could not handle the heat that resulted from car owners' driving habits and operating conditions.

    IMO, while these cars may work in stop-and-go traffic, they were not designed for stop-and-go traffic. There's a big difference between being able to tolerate vs intended use. If they were truly designed for stop-and-go traffic, the DCT parts would not have failed (degraded prematurely) from heat-related damage. Ferrari would have installed bigger radiators and bigger, extra heat exchangers, right from the start. These cars were also designed to have adequate airflow so the DCT cooling circuits could keep DCT temperatures within spec.

    Finally, I think there may also be an interesting benefit with cars that have the HELE (stop/start) system.

    HELE will continue to run fans and cooling circuits while the engine is stopped. Assuming the DCT's cooling circuits logically continue to run while the engine is stopped, the DCT would benefit from better cooling since the prop shaft would be idle so the gearshafts, gears would not be moving while the oil pumps would likely still be running off the battery. I don't have 7DCL750 documentation but Getrag does use electrically-powered "E-Cooling" pumps for their FWD DCT models and I suspect this basic design would also be used on the 7DCL750.
     
  15. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
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    None of the five failures I experienced were in stop and go traffic. So your theory in my experience doesn’t hold water.
    There were different weaknesses. I think the wiring harness of the early cars was flawed. I also think temperature sensors were flawed. Heat and vibration were important factors. One of my failures occurred the day after the replacement FCT was installed. I vividly remember that I was driving to work in the morning only five minutes into the drive while accelerating modestly. There was no traffic to speak of.

    So the explanation remains unknown,

    I can tell that you aren’t comfortable until you have reached your own conclusion. However, the DCT is a pretty complex system and unless we are truly experts and are able to see the telemetry of a failure and then able to do a post-Mortem we really can’t know. All Ferrari was doing at that time was to replace the box with a refurbished one from Getrag. Who knows what the status of the internals were with a replacement box.

    But what I know is that the mechanical meaning actual gears were never the problem.
    Wiring harness, sensors other electricals and excessive heat and vibration were the issues.
     
  16. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    I agree the DCT issue is pretty major and one of the main contributors to my personal feeling that one shouldn't purchase one older then 2013. I'd feel a little more confident if there were better repair methods with the early DCT as well as some independant mechanics that could work on the Getrag unit.

    I haven't heard a lot of information reguarding the variators in the California however it would make some sense since I did know maserati was having issues (even with dry sump variators) which if I recall had something to do with on wet sump motors removing the check valve. But looking at what Ferrari did with the California and how many first's were in the car it isn't any surprise there were growing pains. The weakest link in the entire platform is the DCT.

    Honestly I have only spent limited time behind the wheel of any of the early California's, I have quite a bit more time in a 2016 Cali T which I have rented several times on vacation. I really enjoyed that car, enough so that we repeat rent it now instead of something different when in Vegas. If the prices of the T come down enough I'll certainly consider it seriously.
     
  17. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the California wasn't meant for daily driving chores, especially since it is touted as the everyday Ferrari. I'd also argue the FF is focused to the daily use crowd but know nearly nothing about FF cars other then they have a v-12 and a rather roomy back seat. Of course what everyday means to me may not be what everyday means to someone else.

    We've debated a lot of issues concerning the DCT and have speculated some really good information. It's obvious that heat is one major contributing factor especially since Ferrari added the additional cooling radiator and it appears to have abated some of the issues. And there are at least 2 stories of 2013 and newer cars recovering from DCT issues without having to go to the shop and one story from the guy in Australia that made a larger heat exchanger that virtually ended his issues with the DCT.

    But I think it's also fair to say that Malibuguy has a point about the sensors and wiring harness issues. And since he had 5 failures information he shares shines an important light on the issues pertaining to the early DCT. I wonder if the insulation on the harness became soft from excessive heat and the zip ties rubbed thru the now very pliable insulation and shorted out the harness. None the less it would point to inadequate materials used in the construction of the unit especially since I have read and hears that the mechanical parts were perfectly fine.
     
  18. Jmci00

    Jmci00 Rookie

    Apr 2, 2016
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    I think the basic take away here is that the DCT failure is due to excessive heat over time that causes the various items in the gear box to fail. The fact that Ferrari added a second heat excanger for later California models is probably concrete evidence of it being a heat issue.

    Whether it is from extend stop and go driving, driving in hot locations or in short trips and then parking without the car cooling down, it probably doesn’t matter. At this point, someone could come up with a solution of a larger radiator for the earlier models, but it doesn’t seem to me that the California buyer in large numbers is going to modify their car, so the incentive to design, manufacture and sell the after market radiator is not there.

    Moral of the story is to either buy an early model California with the lower warranty and keep it up every year, or go with the later models with the extra heat exchanger and corrected gear box.
     
  19. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

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    As a matter of interest what cost is one looking at to replace a DCT on an early California.
     
  20. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    Entire gearbox with labor is just over 40k and has to be done at Ferrari since Getrag won't offer parts to anyone but the dealer.

    EDIT: that was price including labor and a new gearbox, a used gearbox would be cheaper but you would still have to take it to Ferrari at some point to have it set up.
     
  21. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    MalibuGuy, thanks for your message and additional input.

    I understand you had something like 77k miles on your 2010 Cali but even with that mileage you should not have had even 1 DCT failure if Ferrari had lived up to the hype about the DCT being "maintenance-free" for the life of the car.

    However, I think your analysis of your DCT failures isn't quite thorough enough. I am a medical scientist by training so I do look at such matters from a more analytical perspective. Allow me to explain with my comments in-line.

    Failures were caused by cumulative degradation from heat stress can cause failure at any time after a component is made fragile enough to fail. It's like your battery. A surface charge may allow you to start the engine and 15 minutes driving later, your battery would be totally dead because of the way a surface charge phenomenon behaves. Similarly, your car may have been OK coming home in rush hour traffic jams and the next morning, you go for a nice drive in zero traffic and your DCT loses half its gears because the damaged heat or speed sensor wiring finally shorted out.

    If you recall carefully, the wiring harness issue was caused by HEAT DAMAGE to the plastic of the zip-tie ("clips") which caused the degraded plastic to abrade the electrical wiring (short circuit or loss of signal).

    Temperature sensors monitor HEAT. If they fail, it could easily have been caused by the sensors being overheated. Sensors fail for a reason. You can say it's a manufacturing or design problem but it's very curious that heat (and speed) sensors actually fail, and not just TRIGGER. In order to fail, they have to be either damaged by prevailing conditions or fail due to manufacturing or design flaws.

    So far, Getrag has not issued any notices, recalls or improved versions regarding sensors so that implies no concerns regarding reliability of the sensors. Maybe Motob would know but I am not aware of these sensors being superseded by (improved) sensors (SKUs).

    As for the particular replacement DCT you received which died the day after it was installed. That was ridiculous. You could not have caused the failure - the unit was defective or already degraded and ready to fail.

    IMO, an owner can only get a clear picture of a DCT's performance if he bought the car new and knows exactly under what conditions the car was driven in, as well as any unusual experiences with the car. That is, if the complete history of the car, DCT is known to the owner. So unless replacement DCTs are NEW, any replacement DCT that is "REFURBISHED" or "REBUILT" will have HISTORY and likely not be the same as NEW, UNUSED from the production line.

    Therefore the failures you had with replacement DCTs may have been caused by wear and degradation caused by the previous owner(s) of those DCTs, and not necessarily you, although your usage may contribute.

    It's not possible or correct to assign causes of failures in such replacement DCTs in the same way as you would with new DCTs. They're USED items, and at least have unknown mileage.

    I disagree. Most of the explanations are known - that is why Ferrari has been able to make corrections, improvements... rerouting the wires, repositioning "clips", perhaps using different zip-ties. It also added the larger heat exchanger which it apparently continues to use in the brand new much higher output GTC4Lusso model (see screenshot in my earlier post).

    Ferrari definitely has a good handle on what caused the unexpected DCT failures. In fact Ferrari is so confident that it used it in all their DCT-equipped cars and still uses the same DCT and uses it in even more aggressive new applications, with shorter shift times, much greater torque tolerance requirements. The same DCT is used in the Hypercar LaF.

    In fact, the NA V8 of the original Cali IMPOSES THE LEAST AMOUNT OF STRESS on the 7DCL750. Think about what that implies for a moment.

    Exactly. The DCT is mechanically sound.

    "Wiring harness, sensors other electricals and excessive heat and vibration were the issues" and these have been acknowledged to have been caused by HEAT DEGRADATION.

    It's not helpful to ignore heat management as the main culprit when so much evidence and Getrag, Ferrari's responses to them point to heat as the issue.

    I know it's nice to use these cars as daily drivers but if you have hot weather in LA... and much of the US normally experiences 90-100°F+ conditions in the Summer, you need to make sure the DCT's cooling system is not further compromised by lack of airflow.
     
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  22. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Ferraris are meant to be driven briskly, not taken on daily traffic jam grinds. The car is transformed once you hit certain speeds in certain gears. However, if your daily commute is open roads and good driving surfaces then Ferraris would be a good fit.

    You are free to do with your Ferrari as you see fit but exceptional cars tend to be "focused". They are not jack-of-all-trades. The original Cali was meant to be cruised in, under leisure conditions. If you have to fight daily traffic it would not be a good fit for such a car. The Cali, like the 599, F12 and 812, is designed as a "GT"... GRAND TOURER. Save it for those leisure occasions, be it on the weekend or the evening drive but don't drag the poor thing around in ugly daily heavy grind traffic or supermarket parking or you'll live to regret it. ;)

    I apologize for having to press my point but please realize you do not even have ownership experience with this car so how can you make such firm assertions? I have owned and driven mine for 5 years and have discussed about the car with other people for the same number of years on FChat.

    BTW, I believe the Aussie made a bigger radiator, not oil heat exchanger. He also mentioned there was a downside, that the car took longer to warm up. That caveat can be an important consideration for some people.

    Good luck on selecting your Cali. I wish you good luck and good memories with it. ;)
     
  23. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    While I agree with some of your points, there are some that could use further elaboration...

    The issue of a daily driver is a sensitive ("political") issue with some car owners on FChat... because that's what they do or want to with their cars. My telling that it isn't a good idea does not go down well with at least some of these folks. I'm not telling them they can't do it, just that it carries serious downsides and heat stress in the southern Summer temperatures is one of them. The planet is not getting cooler any soon. I hope it doesn't get any hotter this Summer but it likely will.

    I don't overlook this issue because it is very real. When you idle or just crawl in heavy traffic under 90-100°F conditions you put a great deal more stress on the cooling systems. It's basic logic.

    Heat problem --> improve cooling by adding heat exchanger.
    Car in motion gets better cooling --> slow-moving car gets less cooling.
    Slow-moving car --> less cooling, works against benefit from the added heat exchanger.​

    Finally it's a very good idea to pop your hood when you get home. I'm not the only FChatter who does that.
     
  24. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    First of all: Thank you very much Michael for what is an extremely useful and insightful matter that concerns owners, and that is so difficult to find reliable information online. I'm sure the fact that you're a medical scientist by trade also helps bringing this information forward, from which we all benefit. So, thank you for taking the time for the benefit of us all.

    I have no experience with the California nor the Portofino (unfortunately), but let me just say I've heard post-2011 458s have also received the extra heat exchanger upgrade (can't confirm it in practice). If Ferrari indeed fitted this upgrade across the range, it's my firm belief that they're silently aknowledging that heat was the major culprit for DCT sensors' failures. I still think it's madness that you can't replace individual parts from the transmission (correct me if I'm wrong, but you can only buy repair kits), and that there are no independent/aftermarket solutions. Every owner could benefit from any of the above solutions, and yet... Years gone by and still here we are.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  25. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Michael
    Just a small update on my current understanding of this technical subject of the California's Getrag DCT...

    I imagine, and I have noticed, some of us have wondered how Ferrari managed to use the same 7DCL750 Getrag DCT from the Cali/Cali30 on the CaliT and the Portofino, given the 7DCL750 was only designed to handle up to 750 Nm of torque (the "750" part in the 7DCL750 name). I mention this because the CaliT is spec'd for 755 Nm maximum torque and the PF, for 760 Nm.

    Well, I recently came across some apparently updated Getrag documentation (see attached screenshot). It looks like Getrag has updated the 7DCL750's performance but kept the same model name. The document says very clearly "Max. torque" 790 Nm while the lower sidebar under "KEY FEATURES" still says "Max. torque capacity" 750 Nm. FWIW, the NA V12 engine of the LaF is "only" spec'd for 700 Nm and the latest V12 in the 812, 718 Nm. And if you're still wondering, the Pista's engine is indeed spec'd higher, for 770 Nm.

    So, I suspect this is how Ferrari has been able to continue using the 7DCL750, which I have to say, is a great transmission, in spite of implementation issues in some, apparently mostly earlier cars.

    The gist of it is that Ferrari is very committed to this transmission, and Getrag is upping (managing) its performance envelope as Ferrari increases performance demands. The ability of Getrag to use the same model, with higher specs, implies the original 7DCL750 was designed to handle even higher performance demands than the original specs indicated. Added on top, the fact that the Cali/Cali30 models also impose the least demands on the 7DCL750's performance envelope means the 7DCL750 design was very much over-spec'd for those cars.

     

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