Mexico picture from same shop same time period, again sorry for the quality....
Hi, never apologise for the picture quality. For those of us building files on the cars just getting the pics is what makes us happy. just one man's opinion tongascrew
I know you are right but I wish I had better hindsight and had done a better job pointin' and shootin'
You want suspension details? 0434MD during resto. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
It is a great mystery how this car was built. First of all Pinin Farina seems to have confused 0434 and 0444 with each other. As a result 0434 seems never to have been entered at Pinin Farina. It seems another car was renumbered - or then an earlier body was installed on a new chassis. Several serial numbers have been thrown around; to sort things out I would really like to know if this car carries a body number - and if it connects to another serial number. Many questions, very few answers... Best wishes, Kare
Hi Kare, To me 0434 is 0404 restamped. Assembly forms concurs. 0404 is listed 12574 by Pinin Farina and I assume this is 0434. The car which is not on PF lists is Sameiro's 0444. Strange but I never manage to read a PF "scocca No" on any of these cars... So far I see nothing "very special" on Ed's photos. Regards
Yes and no. They list Sameiro with 0434 - which indicates a likely typo (0444 erranously entered as 0434) - this is why I think 0434 is really the car missing on PF's records. This may also explain why 0434 was delayed or cancelled until the clerical error was found. Exactly the same happaned with 0420 & 0422 (0422 listed as 0420, which delayed construction of "the real" 0420). Best wishes, Kare
In the last Cavallino magazine, you can read : " The 500 Mondial was first raced on December 20, 1953 12 Hours at Morocco (...). This was chassis s/n 0404 MD, the first 500 Mondial spyder built. Originally bodied by Scaglietti, it was later rebodied by Pinin Farina." But how this spyder would have had s/n 0404MD (march 1954) already in december 1953 ?? Of course, it's wrong. Marzotto family raced this ex-factory early Scaglietti spyder and another 500 Mondial, a PF spyder, in the same period (march and april 1954). I would say that : 1°) - the PF spyder was 0404MD Pf job 12574 born in march 1954, sold to Marzotto family. 2°) - the early Scaglietti spyder s/n ?? was renumbered s/n 0404MD during Marzotto's ownership, probably in march 1954. 3°) - 0404MD was renumbered 0434MD and sold to Roosdorp in may 1954 after Marzotto's ownership. As the PF job number 12584 most probaby belongs to s/n 0444MD, that lets 0434MD without PF job number and so the theory of 0404MD renumbered 0434MD fits perfectly... Of course, if I'm right, the question is : what was the first s/n for the early Scaglietti spyder ??? As s/n 0386 don't have PF job number and there is no history for it (the 375 Plus crashed by Farina at Mille Miglia in april 1954 must be 0400AM), I would say that 0386 could be the good one. But, another theory : If you compare pictures of Casablanca race on December 20, 1953 and Agadir race on February 27, 1954, you can clearly say that the body is an early Scaglietti spider on both races, but not the same. The Agadir one is the one later raced by Marzotto's but not the Casablanca's one. The Casablanca looks like to one of the so beautiful Vignale coupes called "625 TF", now with no roof and new nose and several other details. So, the theory could be an ex 625 TF Vignale coupe (s/n 0302TF ??), crashed by owner in 1953, become the first ever Scaglietti bodied car and received one of the first 500 Mondial engine, raced by Picard in late 1953 at Casablanca, then body modified by Scaglietti and raced still in North Africa in early 1954, then sold to Marzotto's family who also had 500 Mondial PF spyder s/n 0404MD, and so restamped s/n 0404MD in march 1954 etc... Comments welcome...
I must add that it was Ascari and Villoresi that raced at Casablanca and that 0404MD could have been restamped 0434MD between march and may 1954...
Hi Cyril, I agree with the 3 points you made regarding 0404MD. I doubt there are many differences between the Casablanca and the Agadir car. These are small part-images of the car(s) involved. Why was the Farina car at Agadir and the Mille Miglia 1954 0400AM and not 0386AM? Do you agree 0400AM was a 375 MM whereas 0386AM was a 375 Plus? Best Boudewijn Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi Boudewijn, much or not many differences, never mind : I'm sure it's the same car. About 375 Plus, if you work with PF job numbers, you have only five PF spyders : 0384AM PF job 12566 0392AM PF job 12567 0396AM PF job 12572 0398AM PF job 12570 0400AM PF job 12571 And a factory note says "Distrutta" for 0400AM, so I would say 0400AM is the one crashed by Farina at 1954 Mille Miglia. So, 0386AM is not a PF bodied car or could also be a serial number only, used for restamping for another 375 Plus (like factory did for several 375 MM in 1953).
This makes sense Cyril. How come the same factory note says 375MM in stead of 375 Plus for 0400AM. Best Boudewijn
OK, 0434 is missing on the PF list because it is 0404 re-stamped. I think the PF refs. should confirm 12574 on 0404 (0434) 12584 on 0444 but it's too bad I never manager to read any on the flesh. Did you ? In my opinion '0434' was not delayed at all. I even suspect it was the Pineschi/Landini car in the Mille Miglia before being sold "new" to Roosdorp... BTW I don't believe either the Casablanca > Mille Miglia Scaglietti car was 0404 even if it may have used that identity at times. But that's quite another story.
I don't agree. If 0404MD is one of the 1954 Mille Miglia 500 Mondial PF spyders, it can NOT be # 512 (see direction of the trap-door in front of hood). I don't think neither it's #459. I have several good shots of Marzotto's spider and the good one would be the Enzo Neri/ Alberto Neri # 508's one. We can possibly see 0404MD as a factory car loaned to Marzotto, then Neri, then sold new with new s/n 0434MD to Roosdorp. I'm still convinced that the early Scaglietti spider I talked to received s/n 0404MD at this occasion, between march and may 1954...
OK but aren't we talking of a PF spider ? Marzotto was loaned the Scaglietti spider whatever its re-stamping was for the occasion. Now, if #512 and 516 are ruled out, what is left ? 508 and 459. We are getting closer.
As I said, if you compare pics of the Marzotto PF spider at Giro di Toscana, I would say it's exactly the same spider raced by Neri at Mille Miglia with # 508,. Yes, the # 516 is s/n 0406MD (which will received later an early Scaglietti nose), and yes that would make two cars loaned by Marzotto : - the PF spider s/n 0404MD renumbered later 0434MD. - the early Scaglietti spider s/n (see above) probably renumbered 0404MD at one time. About # 459 and # 512, I'm sure one of both is s/n 0410MD and don't know yet the s/n of the second...
Yes. Then remains 0404 or "0434", according to the identity allocated (temporarily) to the Scaglietti car.
You S/N chasers are absolutely amazing! All I did was respond to a request, and look what it engendered! I admire the research that some of you dudes do, but I don't have the time, nor the patience, for that sort of exercise. All I can do is post the odd picture of cars that I have known and loved. In that regard, I was fascinated by the fact that I had owned, at the same time, the two cars under discussion. Here are some of 0406MD, after conversion to Chevy power and after a crash and burn; barely a car! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a Pinin Farina bodied racing car in flesh... but I do agree on those numbers. I think the renumbering of 0404 into 0434 and confusion between 0434 & 0444 hardly is a coincidence, but you are right - there was not much of a delay. The discovery of that clerical error (0444 entered as 0434 by PF) may have been only a phone call away. When they discovered that 0434 was a missing number, they decided to use it on the car being built using 0404 as basis, which may have patched up the eventual delay caused by the confusion. It is also very interesting that Pinin Farina then re-entered 0404 as a 250 Monza in July so I think Aardy is right; the renumbering of 0404 into 0434 occered earlier than that. What comes to Ed's incredible pictures I'll never forget when the first pics I've seen of that wreck (0406) surfaced taken at Medlin's. Was even less of a car then, but was still exciting to discover it still carries a PF body under all those shunts and mods. I think it was Aardy who figured out. To me it looked like a heap of scrap metal... Best wishes, Kare To put in yet another number some people claim 0414MD was involved in this renumbering mess. I personally don't think so, but think 0414MD (often claimed to be 0404MD) may be the car used for Studio photos at PF. Ferrari/PF almost always used the first car of series for those photos, but maybe the first cars were so busy going to races this time, that they had to use a later car...
Currently for sale on eBay. Item number: 380144774735 ORIGINAL VINTAGE PRINT PHOTO OF 1000 MIGLIA 1955 MARZOTTO Image Unavailable, Please Login
