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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Bertocchi, Jan 14, 2006.

  1. XRS

    XRS Rookie

    May 4, 2013
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    I came across this picture on another forum

    [​IMG]

    I believe from the file name that it was taken in 1967, so the car was only about a year old at the time.


    Just noticed that this photo has already appeared on here it's 6661 SF.
     
  2. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    #9127 merstheman, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I posted these in the 250PF thread, but I wanted to post them here too as they qualify just as well, and I think more people read this one.

    These pictures were taken in May 1967, in Ipanema Beach, Rio de Janeiro. The 250 PF SII pictured here was reportedly imported to São Paulo in the early 60's, and was taken to Rio in this instance to be sold. The young man in the pictures, who sent them to me, actually owned the car for a few days. The seller wanted his red 1927 Chevrolet and offered him a trade if he could come up with extra cash - enough to buy a new VW at the time. The young man did not have the money at the time, but he spoke to his (very generous) grandmother, who did, and made the trade with the businessman selling the car who was in Rio for a few weeks. Unfortunately the young man's father found out and put the kibosh on the whole deal a few days later. The Ferrari was sold to a european gentleman not long after, though I could not tell from my correspondence with its former fleeting owner whether the car was sent back to Europe, or whether it remained in the country.

    I am trying to figure out the serial number of this car, and any leads as to its whereabouts today. From what I know, the color is originally some kind of white (not sure if ivory colored, or true white), with a black interior. The fog lights were probably taken from inside the grille to their external position, a modification probably made here in Brazil sometime after the car was brought over.

    Any leads are appreciated. I hope the car is still "alive". In any case, the pictures are quite nice, as it is rare even today to see such a beautiful car driving in the streets of Rio. Even Rio looked much better then than it does now...
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  3. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
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    Ed
    Correct - Jack Durlacher's first 500 Superfast. He later owned s/n 8459. The story goes that when 6661 arrived, the quality wasn't up to scratch and Durlacher backed the car, but ordered another one in exactly the same specification.

    Having not seen this dealer/factory/customer correspondence, I can't verify the info 100%, but am told that the paperwork exists (I would guess it's with the history file for 8459)...

    Incidentally, Durlacher (of stock jobbing firm Wedd Durlacher) was a colleague of Dick Wilkins, who also owned a Superfast (s/n 6345 - ex Motor Show, owned by Tomkins later on who had the tragic accident).

    I like to think that somewhere there's a photo of 8459 and 6345 parked side-by-side in London in summer 1966, but I'm sure it doesn't exist...

    -Ed

    PS. Wilkins is a fascinating character in Ferrari history in the UK, but is sadly no longer with us. Among other things, he was the first private owner of 330 P4 s/n 0856 and had it road registered in the UK (XPJ 86G).
     
  4. torquespeak

    torquespeak Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2010
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    Ed
    Have you had any luck with this on other threads, Mario?

    Are there any other details you can tell us about when the photo was taken and the circumstances? Even the smallest detail might be helpful.

    -Ed
     
  5. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    Everything I know I posted here and in the 250PF thread. Not that many details, unfortunately. No luck so far. Since the car was in Brazil in the very early 1960's I'm hoping it was sent there from the factory, which is why I would love to hear from one of our resident experts who may have the order sheets for the car. How many SII PFs were painted white with a black interior? That's a good place to start...
     
  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    #9131 miurasv, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  7. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    674
    I think the middle picture is reversed - P3 was right-hand drive like all P-cars.

    Paul M
     
  8. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Steve: This is based upon memory, but I believe the car is a 412P. The 412P's were 330P3"s developed for client usage, and they were built with carburetors, as, at that time, the factory did not believe a "client" could work with the Lucas fuel injection.
     
  9. jj2728

    jj2728 Karting

    Jan 19, 2004
    194
    Ontario
    I don't think so as there were no 412P's in 1966 IIRC......
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Thanks for your replies, Paul, Dyke and JJ. The tipo 593 gearbox with inboard brakes and the positioning of the coils identify this car as a P3, not a 412P?
     
  11. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    278
    The picture that looks like webers is actually the fuel injection system. the units look just like carbs, but they are the fuel delivery system. You will need a better pic to see them clearly. This system was copied to make the fuel injection system for the 512BB/LM's They cut down standard weber carb bodies to construct the fuel delivery system on the BB/LM

    p
     
  12. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Steve: Happy to stand corrected, so much for old memories.
     
  13. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    278
    A ZF transmission was installed on 412P 0850 for the 1967 Daytona race . After the race, 0850 was converted to the P4 transmission with the outboard brakes.

    p
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #9139 miurasv, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    See pic of 412P 0850 at Daytona 67 with ZF gearbox here which Bertocchi posted.

    As an aside, for anyone interested, this car as pictured had a wheelbase of 2412mm with the ZF gearbox. When the Ferrari P4 603R transmission was installed the wheelbase reverted to 2400mm.
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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #9140 miurasv, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Please compare the top 2 P3 pictures with fuel injection pictures with the bottom one where the fuel and air feeding system stands much taller. However, I do trust your superior knowledge.
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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Dyke, the old memories are fine. Please see p's post above.
     
  17. alebart3

    alebart3 Formula Junior

    Jun 5, 2008
    254
    The fuel system may be that, but the cars are LM'67 P3s.
    See the race numbers: #27 (spyder) and #20 coupè.
    Furthermore the b&w pic of "P3 engine" seems to me a 365 P2 indeed.
    A.
     
  18. alebart3

    alebart3 Formula Junior

    Jun 5, 2008
    254
    Sorry the year I mean was 1966, I type '67...was a writing mistake!
     
  19. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    278
    Your observation is interesting. Being that the pictures should be from 1966, they should be fuel injection. Notice the picture with the vertical rear brake cooling ducts. That chassis had the rear body Panal with the periscope type brake ducts coming up thru the body work. Also the rear body work was very wide over he rear tires. (I do not have picture of this but I am sure someone will post it). My reason for pointing this out is the obvious difference in the cold air box on these cars. The one that looks like webers should be fuel injection?? I have seen this unit at Ferrari when they were building the Bb/LM motors. It looks like that picture.
    However, the tall cold airbox does look different. I think we need more pictures.

    P
     
  20. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    278
    I am not sure which picture you are referring to. But all the pics have 24 sprake plug distributors. The 365 was a 2 cam with 12 plugs. Did I miss something in the pics?

    P
     
  21. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    674
    Maybe he meant 330 P2, which would be the same engine as the P3. However you can see from the gearbox that the b/w photo is a P3. It's probably the first car at the launch, as there is no support frame for the spare wheel over the gearbox; also when it first appeared the P3 didn't have the air scoops for the rear inboard brakes, so those were probably added after testing and before Sebring.

    Paul M
     
  22. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    #9147 El Wayne, Nov 2, 2015
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  23. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    #9148 GIOTTO, Nov 2, 2015
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  24. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
    238
    Love to take a look at that blue print on that table. Wonder if there's more?
     
  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    So, Carbs or Fuel Injection??????
     

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