More Solo and a Question for the experienced pilots. | FerrariChat

More Solo and a Question for the experienced pilots.

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by FERRARI-TECH, Feb 11, 2013.

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  1. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2006
    1,677
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Ferrari-tech
    So another lesson in the books, two touch and goes with the instructor, then we fly out of the pattern, right cross wind go out to clear the class "C" of Burbank couple of maneuvers, then back into Van Nuys and drop him off at the FBO, and he tells me just repeat what we have done. No problem right ? well almost, had a traffic problem in the run up area, (which will be my question at the end), normal take off, right cross wind, stay below the class "C" until clear and then remain 500 below the clouds, (they where 3500-4500).
    Doing my turns etc i was really surprised how much different the aircraft handles when its 230lb lighter, took me a few tries to get the turns coordinated, i started over thinking control inputs but got it after a couple of turns. I was either not enough rudder at first or leaving too much in too long once in the turn. Figured it out soon enough. Heading back to Van Nuys, pretty standard stuff, confirmed ATIS, called tower and got my clearance. everything going great, for some reason that i have to figure out and sort out, right as i flare my feet seem to freeze on the pedals which causes drift. Don't know why i do it, because up to 5 feet off the ground my feet are like an Irish tap dancer keeping everything on center..Oh well just more work i guess..

    Now my question. What is the protocol and who has right of way in the run up area ?
    I ask because when i got there, it already had two planes in it which had pulled up at such an angle that i could not get behind them, and i could not really tell if there was enough room on the other side to pull around in front. So i sit there patiently waiting for one of them to move, when another Cessna comes down the taxi way, pulls around and in front of me, and crabs in to what space remained on the right side, half in and half out of the box and starts his checks. Well by this time i was pretty frustrated, so after listening to tower to make sure none of them where about to pull out , i went around front of them and just managed to squeeze in and get turned around to do my run up. I ended up getting out of there before two of the planes anyway. So should i have done my run up on the taxi way, should i have pulled up to the hold bars of the runway and done it there? or should i have waited for everyone to leave and then had the place to myself. My understanding of Van Nuys procedures is only do the run ups in the run up area because of noise. But i had a feeling if i was polite and waited someone else would pull in front of me also.. and there is no horn to honk and give someone the finger when they cut you off..LOL .

    So here is the KVNY diagram, i came out of A1, the run up area is C and i was holding just short of that facing east..

    http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/VNY/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf

    So did i do the right thing, or should i have waited longer ?

    Thanks
     
  2. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
    Honorary Owner

    Mar 21, 2004
    20,424
    Northern CA
    Full Name:
    Yin
    #2 ylshih, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
    Interesting question, I've never heard this discussed specifically in my training or pilot groups. There are two primary responsibilities for a PIC, one is safe operation of your aircraft and then safety of other aircraft/others, and the second is observance of regulations.

    As PIC, you should be taxi'ing so no harm comes to your aircraft, and you don't risk damaging other aircraft. You slant in the runup area so your prop blast doesn't hit another aircraft and throw rocks and debris at them. The regulations say you're supposed to follow airport signs and observe boundary markings and act accordingly. So in your case, I would say if you didn't feel that you could maneuver into the available space, then holding back was appropriate. Similarly if the other pilot could maneuver to pass you safely while observing markings, then he was OK too. The runup area markings are mostly advisory, but I would take the edge boundaries as mandatory, so if he was merely out of the runup box, probably not a big issue, but if he was outside the marked taxi zone, then technically incorrect. I've had Ground ask an aircraft ahead to hold right on the taxiway and ask me to maneuver past them, so passing is not specifically an issue. Anyway, this is how I would think it through, as I've said, I've never had this discussed before.
     
  3. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    24,088
    In the past
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    Jim
    1/ The runup area allows you to get out of the way of others. When you are at the hold bars the expectation is that you are ready to go. Turbine aircraft do not do a runup, and generally are ready to go by the time they get to the end of the runway, so they bypass the runup area.
    2/ Prop planes performing a runup can blow a lot of debris about. The runup area allows you to position the a/c such that the propwash is directed away from other airplanes. So performing the runup on the taxiway without knowing who is coming up behind you is not a good idea.

    Runup areas at busy airports can be a PIA sometimes. The time that people spend there varies tremendously, for many reasons. You never know when someone will leave, and you also don't know what the situation was like when they pulled up, so can't be too judgemental about the situation. Try to find a spot and fit in. There will always be those who are in a hurry and disregard others.

    Don't skimp on the checklist. I've seen people who bypass a runup completely because they'll say "its not the first flight of the day and everything is working fine". Mags and vacuum pumps are just as likely to fail during engine start as during flight. In fact you could fail a mag in flight and possibly not notice it until you perform the next runup.

    You're getting a lot of learning in flying out of the LA basin. I learned at a small strip in the midwest and only had to concentrate on flying the airplane.
     
  4. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,565
    Newport Beach, CA
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    Jeffrey
    Damian - It's one of the reasons I like airports that actually have runup lines in the runup area so it's not a free for all! Airports like Camarillo actually have "Ts" painted in the runup area so everyone is facing the same way and lined up so as not to "prop blast" anyone else. It also precludes people from just placing themselves wherever they feel.

    As a new pilot one of the things I know (and you know) is always err on the side of caution regardless. I've already encountered an impatient pilot (one guy was telling me to hurry up as I was pulling onto the runway ... said he was going to fly up my ass if I didn't get a move on). I just ignored him and proceeded accordingly.

    I personally would have waited for the area to clear simply because I would not have wanted to block someone. Sounds like the runup area at Van Nuys is not that large. If someone wanted to hurry around me then so be it. As it turns out everything went well since you departed before the other two. As you have probably seen (and will see) all pilots DO NOT have the same courtesy and protocal levels.

    Hurry up and get your license so we can fly somewhere and meet up! :)
     
  5. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2006
    1,677
    Los Angeles
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    Ferrari-tech
    I've had that also especially when parking is on the opposite end of the airport to the departing traffic. Move over/stop and wait for traffic to pass.

    That was my thoughts on the run up area regarding the prop blast as well, which is why i did not do the run up on the taxi-way.Even though i had landed the plane 5 min before, for sure i was not going to go off without a run up. My instructor tells me people learning in and around areas like LA have more radio time by the time the get the license than some pilots who have been flying in Midwest for years..Definatly something i was concerned about and worked hard on.

    The run up area is big enough for at least 4 GA aircraft, if everyone is courteous, when we are the first to arrive my instructors are right on point about getting as far over and leaving as much space for others as possible, but such is its shape that if you don't use the available space its easy to block it for others.

    I asked my instructor later about the situation, his response was, " don't squeeze in anywhere so you don't hit anything or get in trouble for going over a line, if facing east on Alpha OK to do a mag check as long as no one is behind you" I told him OK, i was in a safe place till the other guy squeezed by , to which he responded in that case pull up to the hold short bars of the run way as far over to the right side so everyone else can get by and do mag check there. I told him great input i wasn't sure where i was allowed to do the run up. His response
    "technically only in the run up area :) "

    So thats clear as mud then..

    Jeff...working on it, where do you want to go for the first $100 burger ??
     
  6. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
    Honorary Owner

    Mar 21, 2004
    20,424
    Northern CA
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    Just a point, a run up area with gaps is not necessarily due to discourtesy. It could have started as 1, 2, 3, and 4, in sequence. But different aircraft can depart at different times depending on when they finish their checklist, instructor/student discussions, or when they get their IFR release (even in VMC, some pilots as well as some instructional IFR, will still file IFR). Once you get 1 or 2 out of sequence departures, the runup area could look pretty ragged.
     
  7. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,565
    Newport Beach, CA
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    Jeffrey
    Anywhere! Maybe Camarillo! Great restaurant right in front of the transient parking area with outdoor seating. Nice painted lines in the runup area! :)
     
  8. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,565
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    Jeffrey
    Good poiint Yin! If plane 2 departs first and leaves an open space and you can't get to it - it looks like plane 3 is an idiot for blocking access to that space. Everyone definitely does not spend the same amount of time in the runup area due to various reasons. I've actually seen guys come in and leave within 30 seconds. Probably a quick runup, gauge and mag check and they're out of there! Scary!
     
  9. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Can't you do that before taxiing to the runup area?
     
  10. m5guy

    m5guy Formula 3

    Aug 17, 2008
    1,627
    Ventura, CA.
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    Greg
    Damien, Jeffrey: If you guys decide to come up to Camarillo, give me a shout and I'll come by with fellow F-chatter and 328 owner Mike M. We both live about 15 minutes from the airport. He and his wife used to own the Waypoint Cafe and also had a hanger there until recently.
    I fly out of Santa Paula, but Camarillo is just as close.

    -Greg
     
  11. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,017
    Shoreline,Washington
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    Robert Parks
    I remember going through " rudder exercise stalls" that forced me to concentrate on the target ahead and to keep the airplane on course when the airplane was approaching a stall. I went through these things until I was doing them automatically and my hands and feet were working together. Concentrate on a target at the end of the runway while you are flaring and keep the nose on it. I feel that some important basic techniques are no longer covered. Those deep stall exercises led to a spin if they weren't done properly since the stick was all the way back and you had full power. That led to spin training and that led to a lot of fun. Remember that when you are in a deep stall the only effective control is the rudder and you should use it to keep wings level.
     
  12. FERRARI-TECH

    FERRARI-TECH Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2006
    1,677
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Ferrari-tech


    Good advise Bob Thx.

    When I'm with the instructor, as soon as i turn final he always tells me " Remember we land with our feet", I'm getting better and more consistent with practice, i think my fear comes from making large control inputs close to the ground, but as you know (as do I) the slower you go the more you need to move the controls. That fear is what caused me to have trouble with the final flare, but i got past that when one of my instructors had me look out the back window at the elevators while he landed, once i saw how much everything moved i was a lot more relaxed. Like i said up to 5 feet of the ground rudders moving constantly keeping every thing nicely on center..now its just small amounts of improvement each flight till I'm spot on.
     
  13. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,565
    Newport Beach, CA
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    Jeffrey
    I guess you could depending on where your plane is tied down. At a remote airport where your tie down is secluded and running your engine up won't endanger other planes, people or property then I suppose you could do it.

    At an airport like John Wayne there are literally other planes less than two feet wing tip to wing tip from my plane and about four feet from tail to tail. There are plane owners and people walking around and cars parked in the tie downs when the planes are absent. No chance to ever do a runup unless you want to be kicked out of the airport permanently.
     
  14. Tipo815

    Tipo815 F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,565
    Newport Beach, CA
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    Jeffrey
    Hey Greg. Thanks for the invite. We'll take you up on it! Maybe we'll organize our own mini "fly in" for lunch when Damian gets his license. We'll celebrate! :)
     
  15. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 16, 2012
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    There are various opinions on when to do a runup. My personal choice is to wait until all cylinder head temps are above 200F. This also ensures the oil has started to warmup. So a little bit of taxi at idle is needed to get to that point.
     
  16. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    OK, makes good sense.
     

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