That depends on the perspective: From a bookies perspective Ferrari actually fixed a "flawed" outcome: Alonso or Vettel were the favorites to win the race and either of them would have if Vettel hadn't screwed up the start by squeezing out Alonso. The only reason Massa got ahead of both of them is because Vettel wasted his own and Alonso's time/position. If Alonso and Massa hadn't been team mates, but otherwise in the cars they were, I'm sure Alonso would have attacked Massa and eventually gone by him since he was faster after all. Prudently he didn't do that because the Scuderia is playing it safer than RedBull. So by restoring an Alonso-Massa order, the Scuderia generated a more predictable outcome, one that was a lot closer to what was expected of this race.
How is that any different from what I said? You seem to agree with me that Ferrari manipulated the result and then you went off on a tangent trying to justify it. So now we are all in agreement that Ferrari cheated but we still have to wait two weeks to find out what the punishment will be. Ferrari seem to have stumbled from one disaster to the next ever since RB and JT left. I think this one may be the dumbest of them all as there was no need for it, that and the ham fisted way it was carried out.
We *think" there were team orders in play, which are deemed illegal by the rules. However whether the FIA can actually proove that Ferrari applied team orders is a different story altogether. Short of a confession from one of the drivers, this is impossible to prove me thinks. And whether the FIA really wants to go down that route and punish Ferrari further is yet another story. You think they will, I don't think so (or if they get a penalty it would be none that would affect the driver's points). And by gholly: If the FIA ends up touching the drivers' points, I sure hope Ferrari sues them with all their legal might and threatens to leave F1. After all the F in F1 stands for Ferrari.
They have to (and they will) take the WDC points as that was the championship that was manipulated. The F in F1 stands for Formula and F1 can live without Ferrari but can Ferrari live without F1? Many great Marks have left F1 over the years and yet it is still here. If Ferrari goes VW could take their place with Bugatti or even Alfa Romeo (the guys that made D50, how is that for history) the if they buy them as the press has been reporting. Ferrari should be very careful here...
I wouldn't think the FIA or Ferrari want this to get ugly, as I keep saying Ferrari have backed the FIA into a corner with this, they HAVE to be seen to be doing something about it, because the way Ferrari went about the switch causing the uproar on the anniversary of Massa's nasty Budapest accident. And yes we all know why Ferrari did it, it is not rocket science, it was understandable.
+1 Manus manum lavat. They might give them another fine, a potential race suspension and dock their WCC points for Germany, but that's it. As it should be. Enough already of this ridiculous witch hunt. At least the masks are coming off nicely...
It exists verbatim in German, but to my knowledge not in English. All we got here is the one about the back scratching and that sounds a tad gay. I like you krafty, but I wouldn't want you to scratch my back. Really not.
It was Lancia. And no: VW can´t replace Ferrari in Formula 1, no matter how hard they try. Formula 1 would survive indeed, but Bernie would miss lots of cash and won´t allow that.
+1. So many people on here can't understand this ... I simply find it amazing. Nothing else matters, this rule is written down, and no matter which way you look at it Ferrari (or Massa) broke this rule. So are we going to allow all teams to break rules or not?, that is what the FIA with this decision have to decide. If they allow Ferrari to break this rule with a weak fine (don't care how many millions), then the very next race if I was RedBull I would turn up with a 3ltr v10 engine and win the race by 10 laps. Engine size is just another rule ... Yes I know team orders have been around since before F1, but back in those days there was not a rule written in the rule book banning it. Pete
I can write a rule repealing the law of gravity. I don't think many people will pay it much heed either. In effect the rule isn't against team orders its against identifiable team orders. Which is selective enforcement. No rule containing such an inequity can expect to be respected.
If you repealed the law of gravity, David, I would do my very best to float away... Sincerely, Andrew.
Wrong sort of rule. We are talking about sports here which are bound by rules that ALL teams agreed on at the start of the season by turning up. Then again you discuss this rule BEFORE the season starts you don't do an activist and play that sort of game during a race. Sorry, I'll be really pissed if Ferrari do not loose WDC points because of this as they deserve to for simply being wankers and stupid at the same time. Pete
You make it sound like F1 is an open and democratic institution where opposing positions are listened to and respected. In fact its an amalgamation of disparate entities with conflicting interests bound by an elastic and nebulous set of rules whose meanings are determined in an ad hoc fashion. In such a chaotic environment strict adherence to the rule is, in effect, irrational. Or something like that Ferrari may walk away with a slap on the wrist or be hit with a hefty penalty. Either way, if prior experience is a guide, fairness will have nothing to do with the outcome.
Yup, and I agree with Max, Ferrari should be fined points. Not because of breaking the rule (all teams do), but for breaking the intent of the rule which is to make it look like a real race. If F1 because reduced to pro wrestling the money stream will fade away. Ferrari were just way too blatant about it.
Suppose its the last race of the season... Massa leads the race but is out of the points and has no chance at taking the title. Alonso is in second and needs to score just 1 point to win the driver's championiship over Hamilton. You're the Team Principle... what do you do?
When Massa pits we put his engine on full rich so that he runs out of gas with 3 laps to go ... Yes that is team tactics but it is following the letter and intent of the rule. You don't be a Ferrari dumb @rse and tell him to pull over and let Alonso passed. Pete
Ferrari was 100% correct with what they did, Mosley should go pound sand, the only thing that went wrong at the German GP was that bonehead move of Vettel on Alonso. Had it not been for that, either Alonso who was faster all weekend than that little **** Massa, would have won or else Vettel (Pole Man) would have. Alonso did the right thing by not wanting his front wing removed from his slower teammate all weekend, and got by rightfully. All this other complaining is nonsense, right person and right team won the race. Forza Ferrari and Forza Alonso, and that twirp Massa should be fired for his lame moves on the winners rostrum, he should be lucky to race for Ferrari in the first place. Had KR been half the competitor that Alonso is, he would have ingratiated himself with the team the way Alonso has and Massa would have probably won one race during the time KR was at Ferrari. Instead the Iceman took his name a bit too seriously at a Latin team and as a result the little twirp had the car setup for him instead of the rightful #1 driver which Massa will never be.
That seems an extremely weak argument. There's a reason we actually hold the races and don't just predict the outcomes.
Well said! We actually do want racing. You know, the kind that force the supposed better team mate to actually work for his salary and make a pass. The art of passing is lost with this continuous contrived racing. If they are afraid of a wreck they need to leave the sport. The argument that there would be a wreck or potential one is just as weak.
I somewhat agree, but the problem I have is all teams have been blatantly breaking the rule for years and nobody cared. Why only this team must be punished now? Because it looked more obvious? Does the rule punish team orders or lack of subtlety? Man, when Massa let Raikkonen pass in Brazil 2007 it was quite obvious to me. And when Kovalainen let Hamilton pass in Hockenheim 2008. Nobody cared back then. The only way of enforcing this rule is aplying unfair punishments, quite obvious as this is an unfair rule. I say: let it roll, get rid of the rule and let´s back to good ole racing (including team orders).
