Motorcycles and physics 2 | FerrariChat

Motorcycles and physics 2

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by 2000YELLOW360, Dec 22, 2005.

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  1. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    What angle should a take-off ramp have in order to give a motorcycle rider the maxium distance in his jump. Assume there is no wind.

    Bonus...how come? Explain it using physics/math/trigonometry/logic! :)
     
  2. Goose

    Goose Karting

    Nov 10, 2004
    242
    Kent, Ohio
    Full Name:
    Michael
    how fast is he going?
     
  3. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    Question is valid for any speed.
     
  4. Turb0flat4

    Turb0flat4 Formula 3

    Mar 7, 2004
    1,244
    Singapore
    Full Name:
    RND
    45 degrees. Wanted to be first in with the answer, so explanation follows on the edit.

    The parameter we need to maximise is called range. It is the horiz distance travelled by a projectile describing a parabolic arc free falling under gravity between the point of launch and where it hits the ground.

    Easiest way is to just let the particle have a launch velocity with a magnitude V and angled theta (t) to the horizontal. Resolve that into a vertical component Vsin t and a horiz component Vcos t. These two motions are independent, the vertical being affected by gravity (-g) towards the ground and the horiz unaffected.

    When the object hits the ground again, it's vertical velocity (by conservation of energy) will have the same magnitude V only pointing downwards.

    Using the elementary eqn v = u + at

    -Vsin t = +Vsin t + (-g)T

    T = (2Vsin t)/g

    T being the time it takes for the object to hit the ground again.

    The horiz displacement at time T is given by (distance = speed X time)

    s_x = (2Vsin t/g)*(Vcos t) = (V^2sin 2t)/g using a simple trig double angle identity.

    Differentiate s_x partially wrt theta (t). It's just the same as complete differentiation, except it's more general because it becomes independent of variable V. Since I can't denote "curly d" here, I'll just use 'd'

    d/dt(s_x) = (2V^2/g)cos 2t

    Set that to zero to find maxima/minima,

    cos 2t = 0

    t = 45 degrees.

    Differentiate again to prove that this is a maximum.

    d^2/dt^2(s_x) = - (4V^2/g)sin 2t

    which is negative at t = 45 degrees. We're done now.
     
  5. rakjoe

    rakjoe Formula Junior

    Oct 10, 2004
    566
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Joe R.

    0.00000000000000000001 degrees will give you max distance (Not hight), 0 degrees is even longer but then it's not a "Jump".

    :D

    (If you consider suspension travel and weight it might be a little more tricky but you didn't mention it).
     
  6. teak360

    teak360 F1 World Champ

    Nov 3, 2003
    10,065
    Boulder, CO
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Same as the angle you fire a bullet at to get max distance, 45 degrees.
    (Ignoring wind resistance, etc.)
     
  7. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    Turbo,
    I should have said, using plain English, explain ...! Nice job, but try explaining it as if you are talking to 6th graders. Maybe that is the test of a true teacher!

    I beat a kid in the high school long jump event using this. He could jump farther than me, so I made sure he overheard me telling my friend that Olympians aim for the shallowest take off angle so they can go skimming along, not wasting energy in gaining height. He fell for it. I aimed for 45 degrees, just like my physics teacher told me to.

    Nice going, both you and teak.
     
  8. Turb0flat4

    Turb0flat4 Formula 3

    Mar 7, 2004
    1,244
    Singapore
    Full Name:
    RND
    Hey, YOU said "using physics/math/trig/logic". I just tried to cram as much of all 4 as I could into there. :D

    I'm a hopeless teacher, I'll freely admit it.


    Thanks.
     
  9. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    OK, let me try in English. We want to maximize the distance. If the bike goes up at too steep an angle, then it gains height, but doesn't go forward enough. If the launch angle is too shallow, the bike stays too close to the ground and, since there is less height gained, it drops back to the ground before covering as much distance as possible.

    So we have to solve for the angle that gives the best combination of horizontal and vertical speeds in order to give the maximum height gained and the most horizontal distance covered. The more height that is gained, the longer the time in the air. But vertical velocity is a trade against horizontal velocity. So we have to find the combination that maximizes both values. Turb0's formulas do that.

    As soon as I figure out how to explain the math in a simple way, I will post it. Don't hold your breath!
     
  10. rammsteinmatt

    rammsteinmatt Formula Junior

    Jul 26, 2005
    371
    Glendora, CA
    Full Name:
    Matthew Shinavar
    i think your explination is sufficient.

    to calculate x and y values of a velocity vector, we have a couple of equations.
    x = v*cos(angle btwn ground and velocity vector)
    y = v*sin(angle)

    to find the max x AND y values, you can logically think about it (using yellow360's method), you can go all out on the math like turboflat4, or you can whip out a graphing calculator and use a little math knowledge.

    the cos funct. starts at (0,1) and decreases on the interval [0,pi]
    the sin funct starts at (0,0) and increases on the interval [0,pi/2]
    we'll cheat and assume that they will intersect somewhere. that intersection is the max of the sin AND cos functions at any given time.

    therefore the intersection of sin(x) and cos(x) on [0,pi] should be the angle such that max distance is achieved. [we get .707. arcsin or arccos(.707) is 45*]

    there i tried to explain it. but logically looking at it is the fastest and therefore IMO the best way to look at it
     
  11. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
    Full Name:
    Art
    Superb. I understood Turb0's post, but I couldn't explain the math part in English. You did!
    Thanks.
     

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