MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale

Just my opinion and admittedly I am a fringe element. FWIW back in the day I think people DID buy a 308 for the relative performance.

When you start discussing vintage cars the subjectives become more important in my mind, as none of them are as quick as a modern car. That said, I am not so sure a F1 is slower than a MP4-12C on track. With equal tires it might be very interesting. But it gets a bit tough to extract 100% out of a mult-million dollar irreplaceable car. I sure don't pay attention to lap times in the F40.

 

You got yourself a bit of an obsession running prices on a car you don't own. We get it. Overbuilt. Oversold. Not a 458.

 

What is your problem? If you don't like discussing it, just butt out. There are all kinds of similar threads on Fchat about Ferrari's and we don't complain. Go to the one complaining about Scud prices dropping like dead flies who ate DDT or falling Testarossa and Mondial and 308 GT4 prices. Go to the threads about how cheap F430's have become and how and when they will go lower.

It's an auto forum. It's not a McLaren atta-boy forum.

It's a discussion of what's going on in the market for these cars. I personally think we're in a situation of great value for money. Someone looking at spending $370K for a used Ferrari spider might think twice when he looks at a Mac at 100 grand less than that.

Your problem is you only see the negative. I see the positive. These things are cheap compared to 458's. Isn't it good to discuss that?

It's Fchat. Not McLaren we-don't-want-to-talk-about-anything-bad life.

 

There is still not enough cubic inches here for that kind of money. That was not true of the F1.

 

the problem again also goes back to marketing. everyone knows and most respect ferrari. the cars are synonymous with sex.

mclaren can't jump into the ring and try to fight the champ. yes i understand the f1 is considered by many the greatest road car ever produced, but no one apart from car guys know what a mclaren f1 is. Mclaren should go after a different market and build a base. kind of like what audi did to bmw and merc. they started in a slightly lower segment and as the sales really starting coming in they raised prices and are now full blown competitors for the two german kings.

 

THIS 1000%

 

How do you explain Pagani then?

I think there is agreat gap to compete with ferrari. Firstly as we have discussed elsewhere ferrari has alienated a lot of people with the money to spend. Much of ferraris current cred comes from F1 racing. Mclaren has similar cred, and a history amongst those int he know of arguably having built the greatest streetcar of the modern era.

Whats missing is the product more people want. The face is coofy and easily changed. then like porche they could offer different versions with different transmission ssuspension and motor options, all of the same basic package. Trying to outdo Ferrari with a ridiculous hypercar seems like a poor plan to me.

 

I agree that many did buy a 308 or at least a carbed or Qv for the relative performance along with looks. But current 308 sales and prices are sustained by its relative subjective enjoyments.

I guess what i am saying is a lot of the modern cars are not so much fun to drive unless maybe all out 10/10ths, they lack a lot of the subjective enjoyments, their selling point is latest tech and ultimate lap times, as soon as that is eclipsed they have little appeal. Hence the falling prices of modern F cars and the Mp12.

Now you could build a slightly slower car, well fractionaly slower that mght be more durable and a whole lot more fun and engaging certainly on the street while still being far more capable than 99.9 percent of drivers at a DE event.

The F1 was using best materials and componants for speed and entertainement, same with the F50. these cars did not rely not electronics and trick gearboxes, very different driving experience. Me I want a modern F1 for the masses at 300k, if its fractionaly slower than a F1 or MP12 then Ok.

So lets redesign the goofy face, maybe have the turbo motor turned into a NA unit, or forget about fuel economy and make it an explosive turbo unit. Have steering feel as sublime as the current brake feel. If it must be DCT ok, but even then how about something that feels like a sequential box or a stick option. Get rid of the ridiculous supension and a bunch of doodads. Make the car come alive, loose 200 lsbs and some cost. I want a wild passionate lover not a measured pro.

I dont think developing these changes is so huge especialy for a rapid prototyping outfit like Mclaren, the better face has alredy appeared on some special editions, we know the race car runs springs shocks and a sequential box. Who knows maybe there are a few hundred ex gt3 and ferrari owners who will buy such a machine every year. I know I would.

 

Jesus, it has nothing to do with the car itself.

Porsche sells thousands of 911 Turbos each year. Audi sells thousands of R8s each year. Ferrari sells thousands of 458s. Lamborghini is selling plenty of Aventadors.

Car that have manuals, cars that have DCTs, cars that lack sound, cars that lack all out performance, cars that are easy to drive, cars that look crazy, cars that look tamer. They are all selling just fine.

Every single argument you guys make about the car itself can be refuted by comparison because there is a car with the same characteristics that is selling just fine.

No manual -- 458, 911 Turbo PDK, Aventador
Exhaust sound -- 911 Turbo
Too easy to drive -- R8, Aventador, 911 Turbo (AWD cars with tons of electronics)
Not crazy enough looking -- 911 Turbo/R8

McLaren had a supply/demand issue, a lack of brand awareness, and too small of a dealer network. If the car had a Porsche or Ferrari badge it would be selling like hot cakes, and you guys know it. A huge amount of cars sales are just based on the badge and only a very small amount of car sales are to all out enthusiasts looking for a thrill ride. Enthusiasts aren't the ones driving car sales anymore -- there aren't enough of them.

Exotic brands couldn't even survive without all those 'posers,' as some of you may call them. Not sure why they are considered posers though. Not sure what's wrong with people liking nice things...

 

You yourself say the Ferraris never show up at track days, so clearly this isn't an issue for them. Why is it for McLaren?

You want a modern F1. The make one, it's called the P1 and it's $1M just like the F1. You keep asking for stuff that doesn't exist in any market, and it doesn't exist for a reason. You could also buy a Zonda, though that will run you $1-2M as well. No one is making the car you want, so why is it such a problem for McLaren and no one else?

Question: What happened to the Scud? Why are prices in the toilet, relatively speaking?

 

Settle down. Just observing, not arguing with your oft- repeated points. You are generally correct but have what appears to me to be an obsessive desire to harp on the problems with the Mac and frankly the tone of many of your points come across to me as stating more than opinion and being self-important as well . I guess my point on obsession was due to your multiple posts of Mac for sale listings. Do you regularly price hunt for other cars and post listings for cars you would never consider owning here? If so, then my impression that you have focused on the Mac is mistaken.

I agree on the bargain aspect. I bought one. Seems more positive to me than what comes across to me as gloating over how much more valuable the 458 is, with lip service to how "disturbing" it is to see a used 1000 mile Mac Spider for sale and what a great bargain the overbuilt, oversold, poorly marketed and soul-less FaxMachine is now that it has plummeted in value.

Again, all my personal opinions and observations, not facts or true in any absolute way.

And don't tell me to butt out. It's. Mr. Butt to you!

 

Interesting. How then is a 2.9 liter V8 TT so revered in an F40? Why then is a 7.0 l Corvette Z06 not more revered? I think the Mac has a number of issues that hurt resale value, from production numbers to lack of "drama" to the really pathetic infotainment system and even the impractically dramatic "dihedral" doors. Couple that with the most oft-asked "what is it?" and you can have some disappointed owners and many others that don't even have the car on their radar when shopping for an exotic car.

I am pretty sure the F1 dropped a bunch in value and was very unloved in the early years, too. Low production numbers and slowly growing recognition for the car's purity have finally caused values to skyrocket. I am not suggesting that the MP4 will do the same, and expect it will not.

 

The P1 is the polar opposite of the F1. Tons of tech for tech sake. To me progress would eb offering the virtues in a 300k package. as to why Mclaren should build this car. (1) Its in their DNA heritage and valid (2) they would tap into an additional customer base, for little development cost, and cutomers they can use. (3) by Building a car in line with its famous predessor thye will build more brand awareness, which as you say the others have.

Its not aproblem for Mclaren not making the car I want, other than I believe there is a significant customer base which they could use. Even if its not the car I want, elements to which I repfer would give their car better press and therfore exposure re ferrari leading to more sales.

Fearrari sells on barnd name so whther it is the rela thing or not anymore does not matter. as Mclaren does not have the brand awareness they have to be better, track days is one of the places you build brand awareness. Just as int he motorcycling world certain mountain passes on the street build your cred, at least where I used to ride.

 

Yeah well ferrari has not sold nearly as many FF's as they wanted to just because its a ferrari.

BTW I think the R8 is probably the most interesting and original looking of the bunch. The aventador the most wild and exotic and the 458 classicaly beautiful, and the porche is a porche in shape. These factors all drive sales.

But yes you are right brand awareness helps. in the adsence of it, you have to build it with those who form opinions about cars, in other words the sprting drivers who know and the automotive porss, which means your product has to be great, not near great or almost as good.

i agree exotic brands cant survive without the 90% of sales to poseurs. But the poseurs buy because of brand, and brand is built on real product, which is where you have to start, even if liek porche you drift form there later.

 

The F1 was not considered technically advanced for its day?

Ferraris have never been track day cars. You said it yourself, Ferraris never show up at track days. Ferrari's history is built on racing, just like McLaren. Ferraris merely has more history and brand presence.

Ferrari has a 60 year head start on building the brand and no amount of track day appeal will ever make up for that. That's just the truth of the matter. Selling another 100-200 GT3 cars isn't going to do anything for the value of the cars these days. Maybe if they do it for the next 10 years it might, but it never would have made any difference in year 1.

And what about Audi and the R8? Resale value was very strong the first few years. My car has the Audi logo on the back and no body ever knows what it is. Most ask if it's a Ferrari or Lamborghini. Audi also doesn't have a brand as strong as Porsche or Ferrari, yet the R8 did quite well. In fact, tons of Lamborghini owners despised the car initially, only to see tons of owners getting into them. Yes, they have plenty of motorsport roots in LM and DTM, but it's still an Audi -- a brand that was at one point hated in the US. People still don't give it the respect it deserves simply because of the brand.

All things aside, there will be a more hardcore version of the 12C just like the Scuderia and GT3/2, and Superleggera, etc. You can't launch with that car. That's not how the business works. Coupe -> convertible -> GT. That's the formula. If you launch with the GT, then no one buys the coupe. If you launch with the GT, then the model gets old too soon. If you launch with the GT, you lose all the upgrade sales.

There are a ton of people who buy the 991 CS even though what they really want is the Turbo. They are 991 fans who just go down the line of the best available.

There are tons of 458 owners who really want the Scud who buy the coupe, then the convertible, then the scud, then the scud convertible.

These sales really add up. That's why you can't launch with a GT car.

 

It has though for what it is. It's not like the 612 was in high demand either.

Do you think any other brand could sell such a car at those prices? It's quite ugly and cost a fortune. Not many people would buy a Panamera at 300-350K either. If Ferrari lowed the price on this to $100-150K they'd be selling like hotcakes. The problem with the FF is that it's just too expensive.

 

You know, in the end it doesn't even matter what happens to used prices. Bentley, AMG, AM, RR, and Porsche etc lose tons of money within he first year. Who cares? Obviously not the people buying them.

FF owners lose $100K on trade-in. RR and Bentley lose $50K the second you drive them off the lot. AM is terrible. A year old 991 is already $20-30K under MSRP with less than 10K miles.

None of these brands are really hurting due to depreciation. Maybe AM, but that's only because they have no money to develop anything and the design is so stale.

If you keep the cars long enough the depreciation will average out. If you want to sell after year 1, you get burned. Oh well. I guess it just inspired you to keep the car and actually drive it. There is a floor. The 12C will not be trading down another $75-100K any time soon.

 

GT car means touring softy. IF you mean you cant launch with the hard core trackable verison better not tell porche, with the GT3 1 year out, the only reason its not sooner is because you can only develop different version so fast. What porche reckognises, like BMW is that the Gt3 and M series are different segments, so you try serve them all as soon as possible.

As to no ferraris at trackdays, If you dont use them at a track where do you use them besides posing? Beacause pretty much everywhere in the world hard driving on the stereet results in death injury and or jail.

The world has changed since ferrari started, when there were road races, well on the road, and your car could be used in the manner designed every day. that is when the ferrari streetcar brand was established, they were the most stylish fatest and most entertainign to drive, they also went to the track and were raced then driven home. Now to do the same thing, you need a car that ius entertaining on the street and fast on the track in a DE event or car country club day.

You know you cant take your daytona and crush a continent with it, or take your 275 GT4 and blast from paris to monaco. Nowadays though you can drive to the track and push the car and drive home. Belive it or not a lot of people do this, and they have tastes that apparently differ from those that buy cars to pose and display sucess. Nothing wrong with either camp, but it does not have to be an either or, there can be a number of versuions of the same basic car to serve all camps, porche used to dot his well with the 911. Ferarari and Mclaren would do well to do this too.

As to the Mclaren F1 you have no idea what youa re talking about, it was the most advanced car in its day. It was a CF tub, high tech at the time, and its motor is considdered a gem to this day with light weight and high specific output. You know they had the starter spin the motor around for 10 secs befor ignition set in, just to give the sense of macheinary and drama. It won lemans ourtright even though it was not designed originaly for racing. the exhaust was made by yamaha trumpet division to be a perfect tuned device served as part of the crash structure, the insulation was gold plated for best performance and lightness, I could go on and on. Butr yes if you considder tech to be electronic nannies so any fool could drive it, and CF cupholders then yes it was not tech.

To you a scud is higher sicial hireachy and more expoensive, to others its more appealing for a whole host of other reasons based around its feel and performance. To you aturbo is more expensive than a GT3, to me a GT3 is better.

BTW Ferraris were always track day cars, its just in the old days track days were amateur races. ferrari laso used to race lemans in various classes as well as a whole host of various race classes, to prove the mettle of their street machineary and develop brand cred and sales. Looka t all those old pictures from the 50's, most ferraris were being used in anger. Even in the 60's a high proportion of ferraris were used at the track, or for high speed continenet crushing.

 

Finaly we agree on something. So if Mclaren wants to sell more, then they need more appealing product, or more varaitions of their current product to fill more niches, which is what I have been saying.

Yeah Aston has a problem, no development and long in tooth. Maybe their new owners will tie up the amg motors and aston can develop a new range. Of couse you know my favorite new aston is the vantage V12, all agression overpowered and a stick.

 

I don't understand why you find this surprising... didn't you sell your 458 spider with 500miles on the clock?

 

The GT3 isn't one year out. Deliveries for the GT3 begin in July/August I'm pretty sure, and I think the 991 deliveries in Europe started in the beginning of 2012. Then they will probably have the GT3 RS and possibly a GT2 in another year too.

Why does it take Ferrari so long to develop a Scuderia when they already have race cars based on the 458? It's just how they go about their business and product cycle. It's not a coincidence that most exotic brands follow that route of coupe -> convertible -> GT.

Just look at how many people are trading in 458 coupes for Spider, and how many people will trade in their old coupes for the Scuderia. If they offer everything up front then they lose out on all those coupe sales the first few years.

You miss my point about the F1. You applaud the F1's advances but deride the 12C's. The McLaren was a fluke. They wanted to make the best car they could and that was what was available at the time. The only reason the F1 isn't like the P1 is because they didn't have the technology.

You sound like an old man living in the past. You focus on the things new technology replaces rather than what new possibilities it brings.

Try taking such a raw car on a road trip across Europe with your wife. Tell me how the car rides on anything from smooth roads to massive potholes, how your ears cope with 6-8 hours of engine and tire noise, how tiresome it gets in 45 minutes of stop and go traffic while your brakes squeal, and what your wife says when you ask her to drive because you're tired.

That's the beauty of the modern exotic -- you can enjoy the car without having to focus on it. Most people aren't driving for the sake of driving. When I'm on vacation with my girlfriend, she has zero interest in what car we're in. In fact, I have little interest in the car we're in most of the time. What's nice though is that when I do get out of the city and the stop and go traffic, and before it starts pouring rain in the construction zone, I can fly through twisty roads and high speeds and have a blast.

Maybe a GT3 is more exciting on that 30 minute stretch. I don't know. What I can guarantee you though is that all the other times of the day that car would absolutely suck to drive.

My R8 is a 6-speed with a twin turbo. It was great to drive in the mountains in NY, but it absolutely sucked to drive in the stop and go traffic once we got to construction in Quebec, and driving super slow in the pouring rain because I had R888's on it and listening to their drone the whole day, and when I was dead tired on the way back but had to drive because my friend couldn't drive a stick.

If the car can be a be as fast and capable as a McLaren, and ride as comfy as a Rolls Royce, sign me up. Very rarely am I in a situation where only one would suffice.

 

I understand that.

I see this too... which is why I get driving pleasure from an Elise and plan to get a classic car (60s) for glamour in the near future