MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale

Ok lets pick this apart piece by piece. Ferrari takes long to develop the scuderia not because they cant as you say, but because they are primarily a marketing company to poseurs, even though their underlying product has merit. Thts why we see so many scuderia with never tracked in the add. As you point out later in your post the beauty of a mdern exotic is its comofrtable on the road, that cant be said about a scud, so its atrackday special in development marketed to poseurs who think they have the latest ofr fastest, which does not detract from it being a cool car.

Unlike ferrari porche and BMW to name two reckognise the hard core subset and deliver products to them as fast as can be devloped, that is why a GT3 comes out less than 2 years after a 911. That is why a M3 is almost concurrent. Mclaren would do well to follow this example, and like BMW give the "choice" of a stick.

Your comments about the F1 show complete ignorance. The F1 woudl not have been the P1 had tech then allowed. ABS was commonplace on high end cars then, the F1 does not have it, same with tyraction control, to name two technologies. Gordon Murreys stated intent was to make a useable supercar where technology did not dilute or filter the driving expoerience.

What we have today is useable supercras, but the technology dilutes to a high degree rather than enhances the experience, the polar opposite of the F1 and what it stood for or its design goals.

Yes what I am focused on is what new technology loses as aopposed to what it brings. I am very happy for what it brings, I just dont accept the corrosponding loss, nor is it necessary as porved by the F1 which is also a reasonably comfortable drive.

I am sure your R8 is not so comfy, it was always known to have a relatively crappy ride. Whereas an evora has a great ride. Yopu see anyone can put stiff springs shocks and big tires on a car and make it on paper go fast round a smooth track. Or you could make a much lighter car with properly resolved springs and shocks, and yes I like magnetic shocks which are modern tech, so you could have the best of both worlds. But the MP12 is not that, its soft or hard and either wau disconneted.

If I want to go touring or across continents, I would use an AMG merc, which would do everything your R8 would do on the street and be more comfortable. I am talking about a weekend car that is fun on the street in a way an R8 is simply not and can de rung ount on the track with great feedback in a way an R8 cannot. Mclaren could easily evolve a version of the MP12 to do this, they just lack the vision, the MP12 is a really expensive GTR/R8.


You see many of us, and most people that have exotics have other cars more suted for the daily grind, and or long trips. we want our exotic to be useable to get somewhere, like a track or a great mountainm road, but its a weekend entertainment thing, or a fun after dinner drive thing. therefore the compromnises forced on the vehicle by it being able to be driven through bad city streets to be parkable by a valet at a fancy reteraunt are what cripple it as interesting for a lot of us. You know something that is a jack of alltrades is a master of none.

If you look at motorcycles they type and gnerres are much more startified by purpose, and a sport tourer is great on long rides, but crappy when pushed on a canyon road on weekends.

 

And BMW M3s depreciate hard, so who cares whether it's available now or not? The thread is not about whether McLaren should have a GT3 car or when they should have it, but rather if it would stop depreciation. The answer is no. The only reason M3's don't depreciate more is because they only cost like 1/4 as much and there is always a floor price.

An AMG can do everything any GT3 style car can do on the road too. Like you said, unless you're going to be shattering speed limits and breaking various laws, you can't do anything remotely skillful on the road in the first place. If a Honda can safely drive 35-45 on a mountain road, a GT3 would be snooze worthy. You'll be in one gear the entire time and the car will have more grip than it knows what to do with. The brakes won't fade and the engine will be stuck at one speed the majority of the time.

Frankly, I don't understand why you even want an exotic street car based on what you say. Give me one good reason that you'd rather have a 997.2 GT3 over an AMG and this:

http://www.rileytech.com/PDF/TrackDayCar.pdf
Axis Of Oversteer: Riley Mk XXII: Ultimate Track day tool, tested

It's not that expensive. It's relatively cheap to run and maintain. It will blow the doors off anything street legal you can buy. It would probably blow the doors off legitimate race cars. If you love the track as you say and can afford $200K cars, I really don't see why you'd rather have a best of both world when you could just have this and who-cares-what for the street.

 

Had the good fortune to be at MotorSport Ranch today. 2 MP4s on track. No 458s. Given the relative number of cars that anecdotally says something. To me at least. Value be damned. The owners use and enjoy the cars.

 

I will agree with one thing I have noticed and admired about Mac owners. They drive them more than Ferrari owners.

 

+1
I hardly ever see a 458 in the wild but I see Mclarens often.
Glad to see the owners are enjoying them.

 

I guess that's actually a little perk of the depreciation -- you can drive the snot out of them and it doesn't affect the value. I've noticed a lot of people tracking them and a decent amount of miles on used ones.

I wouldn't be surprised if the average McLaren already has more miles than the average 458.

 

This post made me happy!

I imagine they are bought buy more car guys (by percentage) than the Ferrari crowd.

 

Agree MP4 buyers are drivers not posers!

 

Tru dat !!

 

Well the ONLY McLaren 12C entered in the Nurburgring 24 Hour has just blown its engine on the 1st Lap!! So much for the engines durability

 

The reason is you can still drive pretty quickly on the right road. You know the concept real road drivers have, like water flowing over rocks in a stream. But the central point you miss is that fun is to be had in a good car at all speeds not just driving to the limit. had you ver experieced it, feedback throught he wheel, allowing you to apply power exactly the amount needed as you can see through the bend to the open area beoynd. This means you select the ideal gear for the power you need, have the pleasure of feeling the mechanism work as you double decluct down. Feels a very precise steering as you aim your exit perfectly and add theexact power meeting it out as youy wind off lock.

I suspect you are used to riding a hard suspenmded ps 4 weheel drive turbo car, so you go into a bend at what feels fast, revel in some lateral g's as you saw at the numb wheel and then add gobs of power feeling the turbos come on boost as you hit the straights. None of which is actualy that fast, or impressive. But yes an AMG merc does thta great too.

Had you ever driven and understood a responsive car, then you would know thta there is so much more pleasure to be had, and this can be done at less than totaly beserk speeds, because the thrill comes not only from the speed, and that on occasion on a bend limts can be pushed on the street for gret enjoyment. Such a car is then also very capable on track. In other words its enjoyable ont he street due to its reponses tactility and acuracy, and its enjoyable on the track for the same reasons amped up. And when you acheive speed its a funtion of your skill as much as the cars capability as opposed to a MP12 or GTR where you give the car directions and let the computrer sort out the rest. Because if you re not racing ultimate input skill and experience is as important as the speed. An anodyen experience ont he road is prety worthless no matter how fast the book says you can go. Drive an older ferari, say a 355 or older, drive a recent Gt3 and you will see what I mean, or for that matter ride any good motorcylcle.

To you a car is either how fast it goes what it cost or what t represents. To me a good car is all about how it goes fast and in that the Mp12 is sorely lacking, if it had more of this, then it might sell better, because not every car buyer of an exotic is a posuer fool looking for paper spec and brand reckognition.

The late last GT3 was never the fateste car on paper, but at any track day here and in europe they were the ones really being drive to the limit. i think there is a market segment you do not consider and thta is because possibly a nice car is something very different to you, but yest you are in the majority, call it the tyrany of ignorance.

 

Ouch!

 

You're arguing with yourself.

The finesse of a car like the GT3 goes to waste if not pushed hard enough. It's very similar to the argument you make about a 12C needing to be driven to the limit.

A normal road requires 1/10th the capability of a Toyota Camry driven be a senior citizen at the speed limit and probably even 5-10 over the speed limit since that's where most people drive.

Even if a GT3 can be fun, tactile, precise, and engaging at 5/10th, it doesn't matter because the road only lets you drive at 1/10th unless you are going to shatter the speed limits.

I have a few questions that I'd like you to answer:

1) Why does steering precision matter if you have, relatively speaking, all day to line it up and correct it? If you are driving the speed limit, when does such precision come into play and why is it satisfying?

2) What good is feedback through the wheel if it has nothing important to say? What could it possibly be saying that is of use if you're driving 5 over the speed limit? What is engaging about it if there is nothing that requires your attention?

3) Is there really more than one ideal gear/power for a normal road? Speed limits usually reflect the slowest speed turns of the road. There isn't a new speed limit for every turn. How does this come into play if there is no need to switch gears in the first place?

I don't doubt that you can have more fun in a GT3 at 7/10ths than a 12C. What I don't understand is why you are willing to drive a GT3 at 7/10ths but not a 12C at 9/10ths. Even at that level in a GT3 you'd be looking at jail time if you got caught.

And looking for brand recognition with the McLaren is one of the most laughable statements, especially coming from a Ferrari owner. I can count on one hand the people I know who even know what a McLaren is. What's next, Williams? Ascari?

 

BTW, I've driven older cars without all the 12C-ness of today. When did you last drive a 12C? Just curious, that's all...

 

I drove a 12c 458 and GT3 about 30-40 mins each back to back in october 12. It was a 60 degreeish day, no rain or moisture. The road was the meritt pkway not much trffic and its a fast sweeper, two lanes each direction greatr surface. So say 80-120-130 mph bends and maybe 150 on the straights, some a little more some a little less.

Then there were some tighter greewich backroads getting to the PKWAY, but hose are of necssity and sanity speed limited.

I also drove there in my boxer, so had a lot of contrast.

The Mp12 was a great concept, I love the cockpit, the motor sounded good at idle and low revs almost like an aircooled porche. But at speed the noise is just blare, and the motor vibratey. It was fast but not stunningly so and accleration in gear was non linear varying with revs/boost, like hard flat and then hard gain. It didnt feel bad to rev, but not great either, almost like one of those not quite smooth 4 cyl engines.

The suspension was either soft and disconnecetd or in track mode ok but still felt like it lacked rebound. The steering was Ok, not superlative but ok. The whole car felt weirdly disconnected, but the brakes which were the steels had the most excellent pedal modulation I have felt in any car.

The 458. had a harder ride, not obnoxiously so, but it felt more alive and taut. The motor was smooth and strong till about 3500 rpm, then it was pretty flat untill high up the rev range when it screamed. To me the exaust was either muted or screaming. Once again like the Mclaren no pleasure to be had in the middle. The steering was devoid of feedback but ultra sharp which had its own appeal. After the Mclaren the car felt very wide.

Both the MNclaren and Ferrari felt like cars that you could easily tool around in every day, and at the limit on the track would probably be very capable and fun, but otherwise as a drive were pretty boring but with speed.

The Gt3, its motor sounded almost as good as the ferrari but exhaust noise was not faked, it rose with revs. Power built with revs the sterring and all controls worked as they should. Although the Mcalren brakes in terms of feel were superior. The porche had a little bit of a cork bobbing feel, but that was the only real criticism I felt, plus of course at the limit the rear engine us a drawback, but on the street its not apparent. The GT3 was car fun and responsive at low and high sopeeds and you had to drive it. The shifter felt like a great rifle bolt and was its own mechanical joy to use. But its superiority as a drivers car covered all the bases regardless of transmission. the suspension was no harder than the ferrari and was certainly liveable.

To put it in context, there is one bend I know well. lets say its a 125 mph bend. In the Mclaren and the ferrari there was no sensation, it was almost as if the steering and pedals were a keyboard and I was issuing instructions. We ran that bend twice in each direction in each car. In the porche you actualy had to drive it through, think about it, and it was fun at 90 and 125. Each of these cars probably could have gone a bit faster through but its about driving pleasure and sanity. the porche you could place on the road exactly to the mm. the ferrari felt wide and the mclaren floaty. While the limits on the porche might be marginaly lower and its marginaly slower, as a driving tool for pleasure it was infinitely superior.

Now I am not a porche guy at all, never owned one, and the few older aircooled ones I have driven I could never groove with, what with the wandering front end and that weird feeling that it wanted to take off. So its not an antique car thing. Even my freinds regular 997.2 feels boring like my M3(or a sport tourer motortcycle). Loved the precison of every control on the GT3 and the exactness of everything inclding the trottle and motor response, all with great feedback though the weel and seat, you knew exactly what the car and tyres were doing on the road.

On the Mclaren and ferrari, like avette you can probably get to understand though practice what it can do and have datrabase knowledge as to the limits, but nether of these cars talks to you and tells you what is going on, although the ferrari is better. And that lack of communication back tot he driver is key for me. That lack of ultimate precsion in the controls is a later of isolation. The porche was as durveable and useable as the other two, in that sense a modern, but it ket all the goodness of driving afine car, goodness you can get in a MXP just amped up to supercar levels.

Going home in the boxer, which runs modern rubber PS2's my street favorite(so it has grip to go witht he decent chassis), comming into the same bend I also went through at 120 ish. I had to really think it, choose the gear and get it just right and eroor would have been very bad. The porche has much higher limits and you dont have to think it through like the older car, but the driving sensation and fun were similar, the other two were mobile video games, and other than styling what do they do that a GTR does not.

So to me the Gt3 had all the greats ensations of an older car, and the cpababilities of a modern. Had the Mclaren felt like the good parts of the GT3, like motor steering responses, I would be owning one now.

If I had to choose between the ferrari and the Mcalren, it woudl eb the ferrari, it just felt more alive, the 458 is gorgeous to look at, but it was a bit of a clown car, all noise and bluster implying a driving experience which it fails to deliver on the street.

 

I drove two of the 12C's at Greenwich ..... one felt o.k and the other felt like the fastest car I ever drove. The car I wound up with is blisteringly fast !! So, I don't see how you think it's "sorely lacking" in that dept. .... Have you seen some of the Youtube vids where the car just destroys the competition one after another (458, etc.) and blows them into the weeds.
BTW ... the brakes are iron, not steel.

 

I think you are completly missing my point. Its not about how fastr you go(which is your point about blistering speed) Its about how you go fast(ie all that is involved in attaing that speed, ie the experience of the speed as opposed to ultimate number)

 

I feel like I am poreaching to the deaf.

!) presiion allows you to place acar exactly so on the road. So for example you are in a 30 mph zone you are cooming round the bend and as you can see though it at say the apex the road is clear, so you meet out an exact ammount of power to push the car toward its limit as you unwind lock, maybe you hit 60 or 80 I dont look at the speedo, but its a satisfyingly exectued moove, like a good landing for a pilot whic a compuetr can do better. the precsion allows YOU to attain maximum spoeed and grip while saftly staying in your lane, and the car talks to you explaining exactly what it is doing so you are interacting with it rather than issuing kesystrokes.. Now if your in your turboed playstaion whats the point as you say, no feedback no skill, just raw speed muted so littel sense of it.

the Mclaren is probably only really fun at 910ths or 10 ths, whereas in any good car you can have fun at 5/ths because the car still needs to be driven as opposed to guided. 10/10th on the mclaredn is say 180 mph though a bend that may be fun in the Gt3 at 90, which wile breaking the speed limit is not insane.

I guess we have differnt defintions of a normal road. Yes its 1/10th for a camry on the highway, I take my mercedes on the highway and revel in its comfort effortless power and great ride.

You know the old adage that its more fun driving a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Well something like a GT3 or aboxer is fun at fast but not isnane speeds, but the GT3 is still a fast car when opportunity knoks. Whereas the Mclaren is no more fun at 120 or even 150 than the camry is at 60.

Dont know what your brand reckognition comment means, but I would say anyone with a peripheral knowledge of racing has heard of Mclaren, pretty much every car person I know has heard of Pgani, and nealrly all have heard of konigsegg. You know car enthusiasts like the things for what they are, not what they represent. there are 10's of thousands of us from every generation. Enjoying the thing for what it is, that why my ferrari is grey, to blend into the road and catch as little attention as possible, because its for my personal appreciation and enjoyment, it gets dirty and DRIVEN to the limit when conditions allow. It also gets perfect maintanace because to me it should drive right as much as it should look right. Grey is great who wants to get pulled over while DRIVING because youre in a flashy car.

True there are very few who appreciate the finer subtleties of anything, a good wine to most is a label and showing off. Lately I got shocks and springs for my lotus, supposedly an upgrade. All theyweere was stiff, so the whole beauty of a lotus ability to have suspension compliance and flow down the road was lost, it was suspended then like most high performance sedans, all stiff no compliance, that way they are a few 190th faster round the one track which makes the paper sales look great. You know thetyrany of wheels that are too big because fools think they look cool but destroy ride.

There is an art to experience, you are just to undeveloped to understand.

 

Got it. I might term your assessment as: 'Quickness' ....

 

Cool

Intereting you drove two Mp12's that felt so different in terms of speed. Did one have the power upgrade, should the relatively minor upgrade make such a difference, or are these cars inconsistent.

 

I'm not certain about the upgrade. It was last summer, so you might be correct; however sometimes it's the luck of the drawer and some brand new vehicles are just more optimized from the rest of the pack.

 

One reason why I do not like turbocharged cars

 

Not a fan of turbo cars either... but a sample size of one is hardly representative.

 

Yeah, those Porsche 956 and 962s sure sucked at Endurance racing

 

It finally came to me in a dream; I awoke screaming:
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