My 308 Comparison | FerrariChat

My 308 Comparison

Discussion in '308/328' started by rsvmille676, Jul 31, 2006.

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  1. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    765
    G-town
    Full Name:
    Scott Major
    Ok, let me start off by saying I do not own an F-car (yet). Luckily I have made some great friends through F-chat that do have F-cars. These people have been very nice and have let me drive their cars on occasion.

    This past weekend I rounded out my 308 experience by adding a carb car to the list of F-cars driven. (Lord knows I love them all.) The following outline is my impression of these cars. A lot of this is open to interpretation due to condition of the cars. All of the cars outlined are in "good" to "Excellent" shape.

    76-79 Carb 308s. (This particular car is a '77 GTB) The first and most noticeable difference is the engine noise. More over, the sound of the carbs sucking in massive amounts of air. It adds something to the overall experience of the drive. The car felt alive, as if it were a living, breathing animal being controlled by the inputs of my right foot.

    The handling characteristics were definitely above my expectations for that of a 29 year old car. (without race preparation) I think it may have something to do with the fact that this car is a berlinetta. If seemed to be a bit more connected to the road. Steering in put was on par with other 308's but due to the added rigidity it seemed to have a bit more of a "raw drivers car" feel to it. A car that needs your attention when driving at a more spirited pace. I have found that many modern sports cars are numb to a degree due to computers, traction control etc.

    The overall power was great too. While smooth down low (due to a great carb sync.) it was definitely not as crisp as a QV injected car from the bottom of the rev range.

    80-82 2 valve Injected car. (82 GTSi) These cars seem to drive well enough but are definitely lacking on power due to emissions. They pull ok, but you can tell the engines are starving a bit.

    The most noticeable difference is the (stock) exhaust / engine note. They sound ok but are missing that intake howl of the carb cars. This car is a great handling car with decent handling characteristics on the road. It certainly felt more refined in a everyday driving sense than that of the carb 308.

    All in all a good car but (having driven a few of these) it seems to be a car indicative of the period: RESTRICTED. Its there in spirit but crying to be let lose.

    83-85 QV (83 Euro GTS / 84 Euro GTS /85 race preped Euro cars) These cars were all fantastic cars. The QV has a great engine noise. Perhaps its the mechanical sound of the 4 valves in each cylinder working away, but it seems to incorporate a crisp, scalpel like engine note. You can tell its a highly tuned engine from that period in time.

    Not nearly as raw as the carb cars but definitely all business. The chassis and suspension is great. Whatever developments were made in these cars from 76 to 83, they are very clear in the way these cars ride, steer and behave. It could just be the bigger wheels and tires.

    I have been fortunate enough to drive an early 83 Euro spec car on track. As a track car, they have TERMINAL UNDERSTEER in stock config. This is not a bad thing per-se as a novice driver can predictably drive the car and know when and how much it is going to understeer in every corner.

    I have also driven a well sorted 85 308 QV that is race prepped on track and while it still understeers a bit, it really is a great handling car that is a lot of fun.

    On the road these cars seem to be well behaved, civil and affable as an everyday car (weather permitting) The 84 QV I drove yesterday was an AWESOME driver. Great steering, great clutch, shifter and power from the car.

    Ok, the choice. If I was forced to pick one of these model years it would be a tough choice indeed. The sound of the carb car should, in itself be enough to warrant that car as the winner. A true drivers car, raw, unabashed, and uncompromising fun GT.

    Sadly, (I hate to offend those who are the lucky owners) the 2 valve injected cars seem to be victims of legislation of the period. Down on power and perhaps a tied up spirit, wanting to sing but being told to do so in the corner. Still a great car but just not for me.

    Looking at the cars in terms of relative practicality and everyday fun. I gotta go with the 83-85 QV's. Every bit a 308. A great engine that is crisp and while not totally raw (which I typically prefer.) a fun driving car that can be mis-used from time to time and yet docile enough to just enjoy a nice summer day out and about.

    Again keep in mind that these are my impressions of the cars. I thought I'd share as an "outsider" looking in so to speak. It is my hope that no matter what year or condition 308 you may own, that you enjoy it and drive it as much as possible.

    Let the flaming begin.

    Cheers!
    Scott
     
  2. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
    10,676
    Worldwide
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    Steven
    Scott,

    My 2 Yen... get an early car with fiberglass body, carbs, and sump oil. You KNOW you will be tracking the car A LOT and glass it easy to fix, carbs can be tweaked, and the std oil sump 83 to 85 can get oil starved during hard turn.

    PS: my apologies about the understeer, we really needed to adjust the rear sway to dial that out... tire pressure can only do so much...
     
  3. Paul308

    Paul308 Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2006
    289
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Scott,

    I think your assessment is dead on. I must confess that i have only driven three 308 QV's so I am speaking only from my first hand experience along with a lot of research I did before zeroing in on the car that was right for me. The QV cars are the best for a great daily driver with performance in mind. My second choice would have been a '78 or '79 GTS with the carbs since they also had more power. My last choice would have been the 80-82 two valve GTSi's. While the 80-82 looked the part, they didn't have enough muscle and I didn't want an under powered Ferrari if I could help it.

    My personal choice was the '85 308 QV red/tan since it was exactly what I wanted and fortunately it was also the most practical for driving and had good resale value (I'll never sell!!!!!) If I couldn't get an '85, I was going to get an '84. They started with the rust proofing in '84 so the 84's and 85's are more likely to weather the aging process better. The '83 would have been allright but was more of a distant choice. I think they improved the water pump in '83 which was a nice advantage (in addition to it being a QV) over the 82 model. While the carb cars have the power and the sound, i understand that their electrical systems weren't as good and may have been more prone to engine fires. My mechanic mentioned that the fuel lines used on the carb cars were not as good as those on the QV's. If that is true, that fact along with the weaker electrical system may be a reason why those cars had a more problematic repuation in that respect.

    Any well maintained 308 is a good 308 as far as I'm concerned though. I truly love them all and the above analysis is the result of a passionate search for finding my own dream car. I think you will be very happy with whatever 308 you end up purchasing.

    Paul
     
  4. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie

    May 9, 2006
    4,424
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    David Driver
    Dang, I was hoping you'd driven a early GT4 as well.

    Been wondering what it would be like to put a carb'd version of a QV in a GT4. It'd probably be one heck of a screamer!
     
  5. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,689
    North shore, MA
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    THE Birdman
    I'm proud to be the owner of the '77 "living breathing animal" that Scott mentions. It is worth mentioning that my car has the Russ Turner airbox mod which makes it breathe better and sound a lot more animal-like than a stock carbed car. Nonetheless, there is no comparison between the sound of a carb car and an injected car with a K-jet system cork on it.

    Scott, I am pretty sure that there were NO changes whatsoever to the suspension or frame design throughout the entire production of the 308, so the differences in handling are going to be due to wheels, tires, alignment, condition of shocks, etc. not due to "development" of the chassis. My car has 16" wheels and good sticky rubber on it, and I can tell you from experience that it handles a WHOLE LOT better than it does if you put the original 14" wheels on it. They are stacked in the shed!

    No doubt the GTB is more rigid than the GTS, though I don't think most of us really need or care about that for casual street driving. For the track though, I would imagine it makes a big difference.

    To me, the two biggest PRACTICAL differences between the injected and carbed cars are the usability and smell. By usability I mean, the injected cars are more civilized and modern. They start a bit easier, they idle smoother, they are easier to handle in traffic because they run well at low RPM. The carb cars are a little harder to work in traffic because they have to transition from idle to main jets in that region and they are are a little peculiar about that. It's not a big deal though. Once you learn how to drive a carb car it does just fine in traffic. (and yes, there is a technique to how you apply throttle in a carb car versus an injected one....ask any carb car owner.) Once you get them beyond 3K though, they rip like no injected 308 ever will. YEAH!


    By smell, I mean the early no-cat cars stink to high heaven and as you pass down the road, dead birds will fall from the trees, and squirrels and cats will keel over. The injected cars are cleaner and more modern in that way. Better for taking the wife out on a date where she DOESN'T want to smell like hydrocarbons when she gets to the restaurant.

    (As an aside, if you are an owner of a carb 308 with cats, I pray they "fall off." There is no way you can possibly tune the carbs to perform well and not destroy the cats! Just my opinion.)

    If you want your 308 to be somewhat practical (as practical as a Ferrari can be, that is) you need an injected one. If it's a toy for laying waste to back roads on the weekend, you need a carbed one. It's that simple! Remember, Enzo designed it with carbs. Emissions laws made them injected.

    There is nothing like the howl of a carbed 308 at 5K RPM buzzing down a windy country road!!!!

    For you carb guys still driving around with all that muffling in the airbox, you really need to let the beast breathe and do the Russ airbox mod.

    Birdman
     
  6. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 7, 2002
    11,719
    New Jersey
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    Barry Wolinsky
    Scott,

    I agree with your observations but would like to add the fiberglass GTB experience to what you've reported.

    The weight savings of the fiberglass body and an ANSA Sport muffler replacing the the thermal reactor unit (as with my car) is noticeable as far as slightly better performance in comparison to the steel-bodied early GTBs. It's just a "seat of the pants" feeling.

    Barry
     
  7. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Scott- nice comparison, and I agree fully. My 84 QV was one of the cars compared. I also have driven the same 308's you base your experience on (except Steven's prepped 85 QV) and found Birdman's carb 308 to be a hoot! I drove it for the first time on Sunday and had a blast. It would take me a few hours to really get used to it, but the time I had was much more fun than I expected. The sound flowing into my righ ear (from the intake) was SO different than my car. Unfortunately, I had to bring it back to the BBQ :(. I could not feel any real difference in the handling, but I wasn't pushing the car so that's expected. I also agree about the sounds from both (carb and qv) cars. I find my car higher pitched at high rpm's- but that is mainly in the muffler, header etc. This particular carb 308 is more "throaty" but also would be due to the air box modification.

    So, I still want to try a GT4, and a US 308 QV.

    Lastely, I/we also drove a lovely 348 Spider, and that's a completely different story all together!! Ferrari came a long way in V8 developement from my car to this particular 348- thanks spider348!! I can only imagine a 355 or 360- someday......

    Thanks again Scott for the positive comments and race-educated descriptions of these cars. You are welcome to take her out at any time.

    jwise
     
  8. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    765
    G-town
    Full Name:
    Scott Major
    Steven, It understeers a "bit" Its it times better than stock and the car will generally go where you point it. As evident by your performance at LRP last week.

    Barry, I too would like to drive a glass car to see what they are like. I'd really like to experience the weight savings and carbs of the very early cars.

    John, Jonathan, thanks again for letting me drive your cars. They are both great cars and a ton of fun to drive. Although as previously stated I could see myself living with a QV like Johns car.

    John, I agree with your assesment of the 348. 348's are a whole world apart from the 308's / 328's. While the 308's and 328's have awesome performance stats the 348's (and definitely 355's) start playing in the "supercar" category.

    Paul it sounds like you found a great car. I hope she treats you well for years to come.

    Jonathan, I think you and I should write a book as we get to test drive these cars. We can call it the Ferrari-whore's guide F-cars. Give real life driving impressions of these cars. Share in some fun experiences and take some great photos. It'll be an F-car best seller. ;-)

    Next on the list; GT4, followed by, ummm, hmmmm.. Maybe an ENZO! ( I wish!)
     
  9. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,689
    North shore, MA
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    THE Birdman
    THE FERRARI WHORE'S GUIDE TO DRIVING FCARS
    What You Need To Know To Bum Other People's Rides

    By Scott and Birdman


    (It's worth mentioning that I am merely a student of Scott's "Ferrari Whore School of Borrowing the Keys", but learning fast)

    ;)

    Birdman
     
  10. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine

    Yea- that kid has a gift. ;)
     
  11. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    765
    G-town
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    Scott Major
    Whats even more amazing is that I truly asked John Boucher to drive his car. Upon return I had people literally throwing keys at me. "You need to drive my car." Umm.. OKAY! :D
     
  12. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie

    May 9, 2006
    4,424
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    David Driver
    Come to Hollywood and you can drive mine. Hopefully it will be driveable by then. And if you happen to trash a syncro, YOU can help me pull the engine again!
     
  13. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

    Mar 13, 2005
    3,919
    New Hampshire
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    Pizzaman Chris
    Saying it like Robert Duvall "I love the smell of a carb Ferrari in the morning, It smells like........................victory."


    Sorry, that's all i can contribute. :)
     
  14. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    765
    G-town
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    Scott Major

    Thanks David. I may take you up on that. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I am very good with a gear box and a gated shifter. I like to match rev's up and down through the gears as needed. But pulling an engine could be fun too. I've yet to do that in an F-car.
     
  15. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    Your background, race experience (real feedback), and genuine interest have ALOT to do with that. There are very few people I would throw ferrari keys at- and many of them were at the BBQ! Anyone who has ever turned a wrench on my car is welcome to drive it.
     
  16. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    "Fun" is not the word I would use here :)
     
  17. dstacy

    dstacy F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 23, 2006
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    Dave
    Fun?

    Man, you HAVE to get some new friends to show you around if that is your idea of fun. :)
     
  18. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    765
    G-town
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    Scott Major
    While it may be a challenge it could still be fun. After all fun is what you make it. Some would say that a belt change isn't fun. The actual labor aspects and bloddy knuckles may be a bit on the less appealing side but the jokes, laughs, commeradere with other gear heads is what makes it fun. Kinda like racing. You can look back and say; "yeah, remember when we were doing that engine removal on the 308."

    So far I have had a lot of fun with Friday (saturday & sunday too) Ferrari Fix it club. Clutches, cam belt changes, race prep stuff.

    Engine removal; BRING IT ON!!
     
  19. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
  20. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

    Oct 19, 2001
    16,078
    Arlington Heights IL
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    Kenneth
    You've GOT to be kidding! The most labor intensive, time consuming, awful, messy, disgusting thing anyone can do with an old fiberglass car is fix/paint it. You have fiberglass dust in your skin, eyes, hair, lungs and where the sun don't shine. Getting the compund curves right takes a real artist with a sanding block. The prep for the paint, the painting itself and the finishing take longer than metal.

    Again, maybe the glass Ferraris are easier than my Lotus. If the panels can be replaced like on Fiero (or a Vette), then you have a point however.

    Ken
     
  21. rsvmille676

    rsvmille676 Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2004
    765
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    Scott Major

    Clearly you guys were not drinking enough beer through out the project. If I had been there with my cheeky humor I'm SURE you would have had fun. ;)

    I know its a lot of work, especially when its your own car and you want it to be fixed and running. I would still try my best to make it fun though.
     
  22. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    There is NO question about that.
     
  23. marankie

    marankie Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2004
    252
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    Martin
    You have to try an early '75 GT4 with an aftermarket mufler. Mine positively screams (go into a tunel and rev it out to 7 grand.....like a tenor reaching for a high "C"). It is as fast a the '84/85 308 QVs that a friends of mine have. I have driven a '79 carbed GTS and it feels slower. I understand that the cams are more conservatine because of smog. All I can say is do not buy a later than '75 CARBED car if you live in California. (Semi) annual smog inspections and 4 twin ckoke carburetors do not mix. And I am sure that it will handle well when I put 16" wheels and low profile tires on it. Right now I am on 225-60 R14. Looks nicely period but the handling is not as sharp as it could be.
    Martin
     
  24. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie

    May 9, 2006
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    David Driver
    I can vouch for that, having followed Martin though the tunnel in Malibu just two weeks ago.

    I kept wondering why you slowed down to 15mph as you approached the tunnel. Then BAM! My wife an I both laughed as we watched you scream to the other end...

    Gawd, I wish I'd had mine that day!
     
  25. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie

    May 9, 2006
    4,424
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    David Driver

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