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my analysis of the Turbo 911 PDK

Discussion in 'Porsche' started by photonut, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    #1 photonut, Dec 29, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
    I have previously owned 3 911 cabs. i currently have a turbo cayenne (my second one). the cayenne is my winter driver. so as a devout porsche fan i feel justified to comment on the new turbo 911 PDK.

    1) the optimal paddle shifting steering wheel is bfu!! although i would never order the car with the old toggle switching wheel, the new paddle wheel remains a poor first attempt!

    check out the link: http://993c4s.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2010-my-997-turbo-paddle-shift-for-pdk.jpg


    2) while the car is truly fast, the attenuated exhaust sound is a serious flaw. compared to the exhaust note of my f430 or even the mb sl63, the exhaust sound of the turbo 911 is a huge disappointment. i have listened to aftermarket exhaust systems on turbo porsches, but the turbo systems seems to somehow attenuate the sound and results in a disappointing auditory feedback experience.

    3) the interior is in need of an upgrade. the panamara interior hints that porsche may be able to provide a sexy upgraded interior.

    3) i would love to own a new turbo cayenne as my summer driver, but compared to my 430 spider, the 911 just seems to be lacking soul. while the 911 does have superior linear acceleration, it does not accelerate my pulse.
     
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  3. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree the Ferrari flat plane crank V8s sound better than Porsche's water-cooled flat sixes. I haven't driven a new 997 Turbo, so can't comment on the paddles. My brother drives a normally aspirated 997 coupe.

    But I don't see much "soul" in any of these modern paddle shift, Intel-inside cars. They pretty much all go incredibly fast in automatic mode, and do it while you sit on a hundred cow hides sipping a Starbucks.

    The real adrenalin machine on the market is the Lotus Elise/Exige. With the road rushing at you at face level, there's no time to worry about interior detailing, exhaust notes or coffee.
     
  4. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    #3 Michael B, Dec 29, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
    .
     
  5. Carnut

    Carnut F1 Rookie
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    No car has soul, the soul is in the driver, or in some cases made up in the drivers mind. I have had 39 Porsches, every one modified everyone a stirred me as much as any of my Ferrari's. Nothing personal, but lets stop this has no soul crap, it is a car.
     
  6. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    I concede inanimate objects do not possess a soul. My reference to the soul of a car was somewhat metaphorical and not intended to be interpreted literally. Simply substitute the word passion for soul, if it makes you feel better. Your comment has prompted me to research the concept of an “automotive soul”. Interestingly, several automotive writers have attributed soul-like character to vehicles. I will give 2 examples.

    Tim Spell, is automotive writer for the Houston Chronicle Cars & Trucks section. He posted this blog about automotive soul almost 2 years ago. I took the liberty of quoting a portion of that blog:

    April 17, 2008
    Does your car have soul?
    After writing about vehicles for about two decades, I've determined that some have souls and character, and others don't. Price and quality aren't factors -- some expensive, well-built cars and trucks just don't have character. Cars low on personality are more difficult to get inspired to write about.
    Posters have expressed similar feelings in recent blogs about car gender and names. On the flip side, there are some vehicles that have so much in-your-face personality that they are obnoxious. Some might put the Pontiac Aztek or the VW Thing in this category. (Or are these so weird that they're cool?)
    The following is a link to the full blog: http://blogs.chron.com/carsandtrucks/2008/04/does_your_car_have_soul.html

    Lastly, Kia has introduced a new car for 2010 model year called the “Soul Sport”. I have quoted an excerpt from a blog written by Automobile Writers Jim Mitchell and Alisa Priddle, of Car and Driver posted on may 22, 2008:
    Seoul shows us its fun side with this tiny car that has, um, plenty of soul.

    The link to the Kia blog is:
    http://blog.caranddriver.com/2010-kia-soul-shows-the-boxy-side-of-kia/
     
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  8. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Here's my thread on this issue: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=139238939#post139238939

    I think people say that about Porsche because of its sound first, and then because of the brand's market perception for being [slightly] more reliable than the Italian sports cars.
     
  9. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    And mine:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262392

    Sound is indeed a big part of it, among many other things. For example, while my CGT has incredible sound, it doesn't have a lot of "soul", or character, or passion, for me. It does everything I ask it to do - in a very expected, precise, way. However, that doesn’t diminish how much I like the car – especially from an engineering viewpoint. I just like it differently than my Ferraris because it pushes different buttons for me.

    Tim
     
  10. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    tim:
    thanks for the link to your thread. i think it was great and truly gets to the heart of the matter. i agree with your final comment:
     
  11. Carnut

    Carnut F1 Rookie
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    Interesting thoughts guys, but I still stand by what I said, I feel the car can never have soul, the soul and the passion is either in you or it is not. I get the same feelings in my Porsche or my Gallardo that I got from any of my Ferrari's. The love, and the feeling of a good driving machine, regardless of the logo on the hood is what stirs me, and to me the only soul is in the driver of those cars.
     
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  13. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

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    Other than the old 993 air cooled turbos, the 911 turbos have had a very subdude exhaust and engine sound, more than the normally aspirated 911s...the turbos have also know to have a very cold, efficient nature...they have often been called an appliance for speed, lacking a fun , passionate side...my experience driving the 996 and 997 turbos seems to bear out these stereotypes about the porsche turbos...with that said, they are very fast and well made cars that can also be used as a commuter car...the gt3 is more my speed but others may find the gt3 too radical a car to drive everyday or outside the track....
     
  14. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

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    I respectfully have to disagree with you on the CGT..my experience driving it two times gave my chills down my spine!!! The closest thing to a true race car I have ever experienced....of course you much more experience driving the car and I have never had the joy of driving a F40, so I do defer to your expertise on these cars....
     
  15. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    There's nothing to agree, or disagree, on when it comes to one's opinions. They are simply that, opinions, not facts. Remember, what a person gets out of a car depends a lot on what cars he's had experiences with, and for how long. As I've worked my way through a variety of Ferraris, Porsches, etc..., my tastes have changed a lot. I'm now more difficult to impress and to draw wonder from with/in my street cars. However, continuing the search is half the fun!

    And, don't defer to someone else - experience everything for yourself and draw your own conclusions, um, opinions!

    :)

    Tim
     
  16. Carnut

    Carnut F1 Rookie
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    I agree with Tim, with the expection of the 4 Ferrari's I owned every sports car I have ever owned was not even close to stock, and my current Porsche and Lamborghini have been altered to fit my style of driving, and what I thought the car should have been to start with. Those 2 machines stir me, though they have scared the crap out of others, it depends on your point of view, not anyone elses. That's what enjoying a passion is all about.
     
  17. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    #14 Kds, Jan 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
    All turbocharged cars are normally much different (quieter) in their exhaust sound than NA ones.....so if you don't like what the factory has to offer due to the new EU drive by noise regulations that are out there, and which every car maker now has to abide by, get an aftermarket exhaust on day 2.

    I like the 997 interior, it has the character of the older cars, which the 996 was sorely lacking, and the customers made their case and won. The only thing I would change is the varying degrees of silver plastic, I'd cover them with matching leather, and I'd like to see fewer buttons, but that is in all cars, not just Porsches. If you can afford the car, you probably know where you are going, so toss the nav system first, then the funky stereo, and finally all those power accessories.

    Japanese cars have no soul, German ones are cold and brutally efficient by nature and design, Italian ones are warm and irrational.

    The problem here is PDK itself. Same applies to F-1 and every other different version of the same thing. Bloody boring, frustrating, and useless pieces of kit. I'm almost at the 12 month mark with my SMART car......it has a duplicate of the Ferrari F-1 system (manual clutch, computer controlled hydraulic actuation, paddle shifters, ****ty software) and I drive around in automatic mode to limit my frustration with it. Same as I did in the F430 I had in inventory before I sold it. Those transmissions RUIN cars......period. Not surprised PDK is getting complaints.
     
  18. kosmo

    kosmo Formula 3

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    #15 kosmo, Jan 4, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
    photonut, how would you compare the TT Paddle shift vs the Fcars'? Im not referring to the trannys but rather the interface. How did the TT feel different?
    I have the toggles in my c2s and thinking about a paddle. tks
     
  19. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    I don't know who is complaining about the PDK, but it is fantastic. It's a dual wet clutch box, very different than all of those single-clutch systems out there.

    I recently did 2000 km in a C4S with PDK and it is brilliant. Fast, precise, never ponderous. My car had the goofy buttons, though, and I longed for the paddles.

    Once you go dual clutch, you never go back.
     
  20. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    I've had a couple of guys drive the dealer's demos and complain about it.

    Guess my point was that semi-automatic transmissions (whether F-1, PDK or AMG Speedshift ala SL63) just don't give you what a full manual does........
     
  21. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    kosmo:
    i have not driven the pdk with the optional paddle shifting wheel. i just think the wheel looks ugly. but i will be trying it out as soon as my dealer gets one as a demo.
     
  22. PogueMoHone

    PogueMoHone Formula Junior

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    The old F1 is boring you are correct, my F430 is 6 speed, I couldn't stand the F1 (I know I am in the minority opinion here)....however,

    PDK is anything but, it is a very impressive transmission, and even being a 6 speed diehard (see above) I was so impressed with PDK that I bought one. It gives you different things than a regular.

    It might be many things, but boring is not one of them, let's see which option will I pick.. manual, or sport, or sport plus, stiff suspension or soft suspension, right hand or left hand, kick down for the automatic upshift at redline or a manual flick, it goes on and on.

    I know many people who prefer stick shifts who think PDK is very impressive. The more you play with it the better it gets and you simply can't out think or outfox it.

    At the moment my preferred method for "fun" driving is manual mode, sport plus and soft suspension..it is a hoot! The fastest way around the Barber track (according to many Porsche experts, H.Haywood included) is auto mode and sport plus with soft suspension...they can't beat it by over riding it.

    (Of interest, and to add further to the confusion Ferrari is using a similar system in the California/F458..but they are still calling it F1..go figure!)
     
  23. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    I'll agree to disagree about the PDK. I've not been a fan of some of the single clutch systems, but the PDK is in a different league. Good on Porsche for perfecting the technology before releasing it (goofy steering wheel buttons aside).
     
  24. kosmo

    kosmo Formula 3

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    i had my mind set on a stick but wound up getting the PDK!
    the battle b/w the 2 trannys will endure for a LONG time.
     
  25. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    As you alluded to, I think one argument for having a “stick” over “auto/F1/PDK/etc” is driver involvement, obviously as defined by each driver in question.

    For me, the auto whatever is way faster around the track than I ever could be with a stick. No question. My 360 F1 and F430 F1 were both better than my stick skills – even though I’ve been driving stick all my life.

    The thing missing in them is not performance, but rather driver involvement with the car. Or, “being one with the car”. Again, for me only, having to play with the clutch, throttle, and stick simultaneously is much more difficult, more involved, more engaging, and more rewarding than an F1/PDK setup. But, that’s just me. :)

    That’s one of the main reasons I traded my F430 F1 Spider in for my CGT. Not only did I want the fabulous CGT, but I wanted a stick.

    Tim
     
  26. PogueMoHone

    PogueMoHone Formula Junior

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    Interesting!

    I think you are saying that the F1 is ultimately dissatisfying (though I don't want to put words in your mouth). However the F1 and PDK are like chalk and cheese, no comparison.

    In addition to the 997.2, I currently have the CGT, the F430 6 speed, and an RS; and still the 997.2 PDK is the "go to" car on a daily basis, it is very engaging no matter how you cut it!

    I suppose if I was limited to one car I would still select the 6 speed because it connects the past to the present (and there is comfort in being a Luddite).

    In general, to the reader looking for objective information, consider all that has been written here, and go out and give each a thorough test over a few days..or do like I did and go to the Ferrari and Porsche driving schools and live with each over a few days to form your opinion.

    Opinions that state PDK is boring, or 6 speed is more involving are useless unless you know the parameters that go into forming them; and how your particular brain works. Are you objective enough to be open minded?

    I know when I first tried F1 and PDK I was determined not to like either..but the PDK won me over and the F1 failed miserably.

    It is interesting that this whole thread started by someone dismissing a car (997.2 Turbo) that hasn't even been driven yet (unless I missed something?).

    Try them all, over and over again, and follow your gut! You'll know what is right for you, and that can't possibly be a wrong answer.
     
  27. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    as the starter of this thread, i HAVE driven the new 911 turbos, but not with the optional paddle shifting wheel.
     
  28. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    Correct, the (F430) F1 didn't cut it for me. It was "too refined"! I actually preferred my 360 F1 because it was less refined. e.g., slammed shifts, messed up a little more, etc...

    The better the "F1" gets for me, the more it reminds me of a slushbox. I hate slushboxes with a passion. In fact, the newer slushboxes are being able to mimic the F1 very well!

    Don't get me wrong, however, the 430 F1 was very cool and was a great tech toy. It was fun in about 10% of the driving I do. The stick, the other 90%. It's just what type of driving you do most...

    Hmmm... I think I need to try it (PDK) out for myself this weekend. :)

    Tim
     

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