My (Bob) Norwood Experience | Page 7 | FerrariChat

My (Bob) Norwood Experience

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Russ Gould, May 23, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    I admit to being judgemental.

    I don’t like the fact that out nearly 900 posts by Russ Gould, almost all of them have been whining about situations he’s gotten himself into. He’s not helping other owners or members out in any way. If I’m wrong please correct me.

    Hyperbole aside, I agree with Jana that many members have more time than money. But then choosing an engineer, a builder and having a well thought out plan becomes all the more important.

    I think fault is found on both sides here. And I am very sympathetic to Russ’s situation even though I sound harsh.

    I’m definitely not saying that he’s not entitled to his car. Or that working on the machine is a requisite for ownership. I’m just giving my perspective, since it is in some ways close to Russ’s. I paid for a car to be completed too.

    I apologize if I’m throwing gasoline on the fire. That wasn’t my intent. Again, I do sympathize.

    And I apologize to you personally, Russ. I hope you get this figured out to your satisfaction.

    Matt
     
    paulchua, nickmb, Boosted930 and 11 others like this.
  2. phil the brit

    phil the brit Formula 3

    Jul 7, 2013
    1,215
    Colchester+Clermont
    Full Name:
    Phil Taylor
    I think Jana said................ I'm going to throw out a guess that the majority of the regulars on this forum have more money than time.
    You are agreeing with her the other way round, ie the opposite view.

    Did I read correctly that he cannot even see his car until he has paid every cent? Now that is not right, he surely must allow him to inspect it prior to paying. What is Norwood afraid of, that he will run off without paying for it as soon as he claps eyes on it?
    Also if it went to court and if I was Russ, I would make a big deal out of that evidence for sure.
     
    I'm 360 Canuck likes this.
  3. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 11, 2010
    1,302
    Unspecified
    Full Name:
    Arthur Dent
    I understand where you are coming from. And I agree to a point. Not that it matters, but I used to turn my own wrenches and now I don’t.

    Having said that; if you buy an utter mess of a project you probably shouldn’t be surprised that it’s an utter mess. Wether the mess is a house, a car or whatever isn’t really that relevant. There is a difference between “needs work” and “train wreck.” This is IMO in the latter category.
     
  4. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Then Norwood should have told him "sorry...this is impossible...get a refund"
     
    I'm 360 Canuck, Jana and dmundy like this.
  5. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 11, 2010
    1,302
    Unspecified
    Full Name:
    Arthur Dent
    Sure he should have. But at a certain point you have to take ownership of your own actions and destiny. You can’t expect people to not take your money. It’s nice when people are as honest as you describe. But it’s not common enough to base policy on.

    Also, every part of this type of project is essentially an unknown. You CAN’T expect good estimates.
     
  6. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter

    So, you're agreeing that Norwood isn't honest?
     
  7. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 11, 2010
    1,302
    Unspecified
    Full Name:
    Arthur Dent
    Let’s put it this way: I’m not arguing he’s great.

    Unfortunately the list of shops and dealers that I think are not good is quite long.

    But I also think that’s widely known and eventually we have to educate ourselves and make smart decisions.

    Part of the issue is that the project described is a)bought from one of the worst sellers ever which is VERY public and b) then turned into an almost open checkbook project. We should all expect issues with either one of those, let alone both.
     
  8. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    *shakes head*

    I don't agree, but my views have already been expressed.
     
  9. dmundy

    dmundy Formula 3
    Owner

    Sep 11, 2010
    1,302
    Unspecified
    Full Name:
    Arthur Dent
    Fair enough.

    Did you read this thread?
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/need-gear-head-attorney-in-la.546588/

    Which included a description of the car for sale? A description that IMO screams RUN AWAY.

    Shake your head all you like. But when you buy an obvious basket case you can’t expect smooth sailing trying to make it not a basket case. Best case is good money after bad because you like the project. But that’s the BEST case.
     
    GatorFL likes this.
  10. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    A few answers to posts in my absence before getting on with the saga.

    Re Buckley, again I bought the car from an Ebay seller who went by the handle "shelby" or something like that. I had no way of knowing this was Buckley. So I could not research him on this forum. I thought that if I asked all the right questions in writing in the Q&A recorded for posterity, Ebay would offer me some recourse if there was significant misrepresentation. What I did not expect was that Ebay would wash their hands of the matter because I did not use their Paypal service to pay the seller. But to put things in perspective, my estimate of damages arising from my transaction with Buckley is relatively minor compared to my estimate of what Norwood has inflicted, which amount I can't precisely calculate yet as I have no idea what sort of shape the car is in since he won't let me inspect the car or the work. So this thread is about Norwood, not Buckley. Buckley will answer to me as soon as I can get him served, something easier said than done as he is apparently adept at avoiding service. So far I have had 4 different professional servers fail to serve him.

    Re Rules of the Road, Bob likes to rag on his competitor Carpenter who also does these conversions. He spent a lot of time telling me everything that was wrong with the last "Carpenter Car" he had in his shop. That poor guy paid Norwood a small fortune to fix the car and in return Norwood is badmouthing the result to anyone who cares to listen. I did not care to be another pawn in the Norwood-Carpenter war. In any case, this car has nothing to do with Carpenter as best I can tell. The bodywork was done by Wicked Auto or something like that in LA. But in Bob's mind, it's still a "Carpenter Car" even though he told me the bodywork on this car was good. The problems we ran into had very little to do with the bodywork. They have much more to do with Norwood's business practices, his errors and omissions, and the pattern of doing work out of sequence, doing work poorly the first time and having to redo the work, and diving in head first in a rush without thinking things through. Bob makes a big deal of the fact that some components eg the brake booster were unserviceable, but these are almost all Ferrari parts not "Carpenter" parts.

    Re brake valve, Bob told me the warning light valve was not important, so he bypassed it. The valve was missing and Bob missed that in his initial inspection and his estimates for the job. This is the least of the brake issues however. According to Bob himself, there isn't enough vacuum to operate the booster other than for occasional braking, and there is excessive rear bias (something even I questioned before he replaced the front brakes). Both those issues are of Bob's making but he does not take ownership other than to suggest I pay him a lot more money to undo what he has done and go down some other path. In Bob's mind, he gets to bill for everything he does even if it later proves to be necessary to redo what he did the first time, or to redo it twice. He also bends the facts ... for example he told me that he replaced the stock 308 front brakes before the rear brakes showed up from Ferrparts, and states "I didn't know 355 rear brakes were so big" as an excuse for the mess he created, as if that somehow exculpates him. But in fact he did the front brakes immediately after the rear brakes were done. Another example: he tells you with a straight face he had to replace the lampholders in the bumper lights, and even produces a burned out lampholder as evidence, despite your having purchased a brand new OEM pair of complete bumper lights and provided those to him. And when you ask him to produce other parts he took off, he tells you he threw those out. But he keeps burned out lampholders and rotors that are way under min spec.

    Re being naive, I guess I am. You see I think that if someone tells you all the parts are there, in writing, they are there. If he pictures the car with the rear wheels in place, you don't expect to receive a car with no rear chassis or rear suspension components installed, and rear wheels that don't bolt up even if the hubs are in place. If you call mechanic X and ask him why the job was not finished, and he tells you that he is simply moving shop and that the seller has no place to store the car, you don't assume that the real reason the project is for sale is something else. I think that if you hire the most competent person in the field to do a job, and he confidently tells you after thoroughly inspecting the car that it's a "good one" and that you will be all done for $x, you don't expect to lay out $2x for a car that won't brake, won't idle, won't brake, and won't even start and be held to ransom for even more money; when he tells you, after working on the car intensively and being over budget and late, that he is almost done and another $5K will finish the car, you don't expect to be asked to pay another $50K; when he makes a deal with you to entice you to continue despite everything, and you record that in writing, and you honor that deal, you don't think he is going to renege and present you with some other random demand; and when you show up as planned to pay what he demands with a cashier's check in hand, you don't expect to be presented with further conditions, told to bring cash, and denied the right to inspect the work.

    Anyway, the next chapter will be called "Back from the Brink".
     
    dinogt4guy and AshAP like this.
  11. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Chapter 5: Back from the Brink

    While I was trying to figure out how I owed another $10K when Norwood told me another $5K would finish the job, and not much progress was evident due to waiting on the half shafts that Ferrparts somehow failed to send when they sent the rear suspension, Bob called in response to my questioning the situation and told me that there were some errors in the invoices. So I sent Bob a $5K "good faith" payment to pay for the parts (I had gleaned that Ferrparts might be holding back parts due to payment issues) along with the following statement:

    "I look forward to settling the final accounts when the car is done and the accounts have been scrubbed to make sure they are correct. I would appreciate it if you would personally check both the labor and the parts invoices to make sure I am not paying for someone else's project, or for avoidable rework."

    I also asked him about the Motec controller which had yet to be invoiced and he replied

    "Russ. All of the parts are paid for and Furr parts said all the parts that I ordered a month ago are shipped. Also i am a Motec dealer and can sell you a New m8/4. For $1650. We worked on the shocks, fitted the fuel filler box
    And quit at 4:00. Tomorrow we will fit the rear wheel houses and install the wheels to confirm that we have the right bolts. As soon as the tires and Furr parts arrive we can button it up. Will send pictures tomorrow. Bob"

    Based on this, I assumed we were getting close to completion. The tires he referred to were purchased by me to suit the second set of Speedline wheels I bought to overcome the problem of the rear wheels sticking out 4" even without adapters.

    Then instead of the expected note saying the car was done and here's your final total, a pair of new invoices were presented for parts and labor (attached) bringing the total invoiced amount to circa $55K, now $20K over the second promised completion figure of $35K and $30K over the original estimates of $25K. This was after some minor adjustments were made by Bob to earlier invoices to correct errors. But the invoices still contained a bunch of dubious stuff and $4K of piecemeal suspension parts. Anyone know who Reel Alesa is? Seems I sent them some parts but I have no clue what.

    At this point I was ready to cry Uncle. I wrote Bob a lengthy letter:

    "Hello Bob,

    I see you adjusted invoice 4813 (labor) by $595 which I appreciate, as well as 4826 (outsourcing) by $400.

    Ref the attached summary from Cathy, it seems we are now $50K into a $25K project (and that does not include parts I have supplied). So understandably, I am taking a close look at these invoices to try to figure that out.

    In parts, we are at roughly $19K vs the going-in estimates of $12,500 excl the motec. So including the motec we are at $19K vs $14K. There are two major items that stick out, that account for all if this $5K overage.

    i. The 4 wheelhouses were estimated at $2400 in aggregate. I supplied 2, you supplied 2 at $4080. This does not include the labor to fab the smaller pieces for front and rear. So we are approx $3K over on these 2 wheelhouses. Is this a mistake?

    ii. The rear suspension/brake/drivetrain parts were verbally quoted to me at $2500 from Ferrparts. The pieces were individually billed when they came in and if my math is correct in aggregate you have billed me $4759.90 for those same parts. That is about $2K over.

    There are some other small parts that were quoted at one number and billed at another, but that's not a huge amount of money.

    In labor, we are at $33077 vs the going-in estimate of $13235 or $20K over. Some of this is due to the "Carpenter Factor" but as best I can tell that's not a lot of money, the only items that fall into that category are

    i. the labor to fab the brackets for the park/turn lights as best I can tell $180 total to fit the lights.
    ii. the rear quarter glass, more labor, but less parts than if the car were "correct". So probably a wash but say $1K in extra labor.

    The 355 factor is another driver of the labor overrun, although it's hard to say exactly how much. The need for a custom exhaust, the mods to the fuel tanks, and the uncooperative gear shifter seem to be three areas that were not fully anticipated. The motor does not account for all of the labor overrun. After we got the motor pretty much done, at the time I paid the $15K bringing the total paid to $30K, you estimated we would finish out around $35K parts and labor. We blew right through the $35K and are currently at $50K. So there is a lot of recent stuff that is driving the labor overrun, it's not all the motor install.

    One thing I notice is that RJ, who I did not think was a mechanic at all, seems to bill a lot of time to this project, in large chunks. For example, I see over 20 hours billed to the heater in recent weeks. Is he really putting those hours into this car?

    So the labor overrun is still partially a mystery to me.

    Finally, with regards to the outsourcing bill, I see on your latest bill that you are going to machine new spacers for the front wheels. I thought you had a pair from the prior Carpenter car project? If not, I am pretty sure you can get spacers from Hill Eng for $300 for the pair with lugnuts. And we need to discuss what we are going to do about the old spacers, which were over $900. This was, to a large degree, entirely avoidable as nobody thought, at the time the spacers were made, that the rear wheels were going to fit and I was actively looking for a replacement set of wheels that would work. So I feel you "jumped the gun" on those. I really have no use for those adapters.

    The bottom line is I am running out of money for this project so let's get it finished, get the invoices all correct and up to date, and then I will pay you what we agree on so I can then go after the seller for his misrepresentations."

    To my surprise, Bob called me the next day and offered to sit down at the end of the project and "split the labor overrun" which was a huge relief. He told me that way I would not be happy, and he would not be happy. I followed up with this email and a further payment of $5K:

    "Dear Bob,

    Further to our telcon of today in which you kindly offered to sit down at the end of the project and split the labor overrun with me (I accept) and to get Kathy to look into the Ferrparts billing for the suspension/brakes/drivetrain, I have sent you another $5K in good faith, bringing the total cumulative paid to $40K. Since the labor overrun is $20K and the billings to date are $50K, the adjusted total billing should be $40K and we are now square. Of course, there will be some additional billing to finish the project (and hopefully an adjustment on the Ferrparts stuff), and it should be mostly labor.

    Russ"

    At this point I could see the light at the end of the tunnel; but I didn't see the freight train coming down the track.
     

    Attached Files:

    I'm 360 Canuck, krazykarguy and AshAP like this.
  12. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Chapter 6: It's Alive!

    Now that the looming financial crisis had been dissipated and the straggling Ferrparts bits were in hand, work proceeded on the final punch list items: getting the motor running, installing the seats, doing the quarter windows, plumbing in the rear brakes, making the custom 6 speed shift gate, and getting everything to work. Bob sent me an email in mid July stating the car would be "ready midweek" but I told him I would not be able to come by till early Aug to collect it.

    While Bob and his guys worked on these items, I took the console home and gave it the Leatherique treatment in black, to match the "tennis shoe" chairs and the door trim. I sent the two console gauges to out to Moma, Bob's favored vendor, to have the clock fixed and to redo the gauges in orange to match the binnacle gauges that Bob was going to swap out to GTO orange face from his own inventory. I also decided to have the instrument fascia done in crinkle Ferrari red to match the valve covers as it was scarred up and while this was not the correct finish, the entire car was not correct so might as well make it unique.

    I also made a custom horn button as the one the seller eventually supplied (the ad showed a horn button but the car arrived without it) was the wrong button for the Nardi wheel in the car. Nardi Ferrari buttons are unobtanium as best I can tell so I got a similar Nardi button from an Opel and replaced the Opel logo with a pure silver medallion that I engraved with Norwood's logo. (I am a firearms dealer, of necessity a gunsmith and of choice fairly competent with a hand graver.)

    I wanted to be there to see the car start and run but that did not work out due to my travel schedule and some hiccups. The custom rear wheelhouses did not fit and had to be modified; the right rear wheel was rubbing on the bodywork under acceleration (despite Bob's earlier assurances that the suspension and wheels "fit perfectly" even though he had gone out on a limb and installed the rear subframe without the suspension components in hand); the alignment came back bad and required some "shimming" to get it right; the brake booster needed to be replaced according to Bob; one of the gas tanks had to come out for welding again (third time); the car was canted to one side even after adjusting the rear shocks so the rh front spring was cut and the A arm bushings replaced; and RJ continued work on the "heater" and "wiring"...

    Anyway, by August the guys got the car running and driving which was very good news at long last. First week of Aug I received another email stating that there were a few remaining items to be done.

    "
    LIST.
    1. Motor mounts. On order.
    2. Shifter plate
    3 gas door hinge. Coming
    4. LH shock bushings
    5 . Driving lights
    6 Turn Signals. (Need consul and Hazard sw.)
    We have went through nearly ever system on this car. The Front A arms will need new bushings and check the ball joints but they are not critical. The alignment of the front end came out ok. Let's talk about the bill. BOB"

    I received another invoice for circa $14K, mostly labor, bringing to the total invoiced to about $65K but after the agreed adjustment to split the labor overrun, the adjusted total was $48K plus minus by my calc and I agreed to pay another $5K after visiting with Bob mid Aug and confirming that we were on the same page. I left the restored console with him along with some associated knobs and bezels I had bought from Superformance and Ferrparts and took some photos of the car nearing completion for the insurance co.

    When I got home I wired the money and emailed Bob thus:

    "Hello Bob,

    Just a couple of notes on the car:

    1. The short you are seeing may the the door light wiring that's floating around inside the door frame. They are hot with ignition off.
    2. The instrument panel has to go out for red crinkle finish before the gauges come back. They can do the door plates and the ashtray lid at the same time in ferrari red body paint if they have it. If not I will let the body guys do those. The horsie for the ashtray, and the little springs, are in a plastic bag in one of the boxes I delivered yesterday. Don't put the ashtray lid on until/unless it's painted, as there is grease in the lower part. The ashtray requires 3mmx.5mm machine screws to secure it to the console chassis. I just put a gun screw in there temporarily, it's actually a 4-48 but close enough for a temporary solution.
    3. The new hazard switch is in the console in the appointed position. Hopefully that will resolve the indicator problems. The fan we are going to have to wire off/full on as I only have a two position/two terminal switch.
    4. Be careful with the finish on the console, it's supposed to be dye but it's really just a thin coating and it scratches easy. As you know there is a steel lip on the removable portion that is sharp. I did not glue the labels on the hvac control levers as I was not sure of the positions. You have 3 of my knobs. I am short one knob.
    5. The engine deck bumper and the windshield spray nozzle I left with Robert. Also the center piece for the rear shelf.
    6. Need a photo of interior with console in and fusebox cover on for insurance co. I think all the gauges need to be there as well. Try not to show the floor with missing carpets.
    7. Can you get a cover on that driver's seat? It's getting grubby.

    By my calc. the total labor to date is 45616.27

    By agreement, the first 13235 is yours. Splitting the overage of 32381.27 works out to $16190.64. So adjusted labor is 29425.63. There are many reasons for the overrun, I don't think it's productive to get into the weeds on that.

    Outstanding balance (before latest revisions, up to and including invoice 4850), is 24737.49. Adjusting the labor as above the new outstanding balance is 8 546.85

    I am sending another 5000 today as we agreed, bringing total to date to $45K. I need the revised invoices as well as the two spreadsheets before we wrap this up. (the spreadsheet showing the labor and parts for the rear suspension/brakes/driveshafts needs updated; i need a second spreadsheet for the install of the subframe and drivetrain that includes all the work and parts except the cost of the wiring for the new ECU and the programming of same, that has nothing to do with the seller). I am trying to show the judge that the seller overstated the completion on the chassis prep and install. The rear wheels were on the car in the photos. He told me "the subframe has been aligned in the car, the hard part is done". When I asked how much more work was needed to get the drivetrain in, was it 20 hours or 200 hours, he wrote "more like 20 hours".

    I will be by on the 24th (next Thursday). Try to get it finished but I doubt it due to Moma. Hopefully I can at least drive the car on that day.

    Russ"

    Bob accepted the payment along with the accompanying calculations, just as he had accepted the prior payment with the identical adjustment method applied, the stated threshold of 13325 being the original labor estimate.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     

    Attached Files:

  13. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
    Full Name:
    Kim
    Now wait a minute. It’s early and just having my 1st cup of coffee so I may have read this incorrectly.
    Norwood cut spring height on one side to compensate for vehicle stance? The wheels on one side rub against bodywork? What happened to the previously discussed jigs to align all this? Even if this was the very first 355 suspension/engine cradle they ever installed, does anyone there know how to use a tape measure? What an absolute mess. How is this vehicle going to track on the highway? Rear of the vehicle surely can’t track parallel with the front properly. Excessive tire wear on one rear tire?
    My family owned a body shop for over 30 years, this vehicle is standing out as one of the most cobbled up that I can remember..
    At this point I would walk away from the project, walk away from litigation take my financial beatdown and realize with all this posted on the net this vehicle is almost sale proof.
     
    davemqv and thorn like this.
  14. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Not once but three times I believe. When I asked him was there any accident damage he said no. When I asked whether the rear subframe was installed out of level Joe the lead mechanic said all was carefully measured and the work was done on a chassis jig. What then? The only thing they could come up with was that Ferrparts supplied an unmatched pair of rear shocks (and by implication Norwood did not check them before or after installation, they just hacked away at the front right corner to get car level.) This is at the top of my list for an independent inspection when i recover the car. And probably one of the reasons Norwood wants cash and a release before he will let me near the car. Add to that list the brakes, the motec/map issues, why the heater required so many hours, ditto the a/c (that episode yet to come).

    I have an open appointment at a premier Ferrari shop to dig into this whole list as soon as I can get the car released.
     
  15. carnutdallas

    carnutdallas Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2010
    1,685
    Dallas Burbs
    Full Name:
    Rob
    This is the craziest car story I have ever read! Curious if you have title to car? Is the implied mechanics lien in Texas invoked? Has he lien’d the car. Can you not take a marshal to go retrieve your car?

    Being here in Dallas and knowing of Bob, having met Bob and the reputation of the 80’s and 90’s; this iteration of Norwood is beyond the pale.

    My heart and mind ache for you and your wallet. Just miserable.

    I am subscribed to the end. My prayer is a positive one, but alas, this may require an exorcism.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    paulchua and Cirorsi like this.
  16. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    I have title and there is no lien. But in TX a mechanic can hold car hostage subject to later censure by the court. He who laughs last...

    It gets stranger as the story unfolds.
     
  17. Jakuzzi

    Jakuzzi Formula 3

    Mar 26, 2005
    2,072
    PR, TX, GV
    Full Name:
    Jaime
    I hope everything works out in the end, but please remove the GTO badging from the car.
     
    paulchua and carnutdallas like this.
  18. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    Wow.

    Matt
     
    paulchua and davemqv like this.
  19. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 7, 2012
    3,322
    Tallahassee, FL
    I can't wait for the rest of the heater billing details.
     
    Jakuzzi likes this.
  20. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

    Nov 21, 2015
    1,911
    Ontario, The Real One in Canada
    Full Name:
    Lars!
    Appalling and disgraceful.
    I wouldn’t let Bob work on my bicycle not to mention any car. What a hack.

    It’s a bit of a bait and switch...you get baited by the low hourly rate, but the fuzzy accounting and inflated hours, trial and error billing etc brings you back to what a reputable shop charges, but with the skills and business acumen of a shade tree mechanic.

    OP just kept digging himself in deeper though. There’s a saying in the stock market:your first loss is usually your best loss. OP didn’t know when to walk away.
     
    thorn likes this.
  21. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    In retrospect I should have pulled the plug when I got the very first bill with all the charges for the 328 project that I did not go forward with, and the "unload car" and "move car into shop" charges.

    Later, each time I got close to crying uncle Bob would offer some kind of inducement to continue. At $30k he said another $5 k would finish it; at $40k he said he would split the labor overrun; at $45 k he said we were ready to wrap it up.

    I actually liked the guy and his team while they were working on the car. It wasn't until what I now perceive to be a trap was sprung that I realized I was the chump. Getting ahead of myself though.
     
  22. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    Chapter 7: Test Drive

    So in mid Aug I showed up hoping to test drive the car. Bob was not there but RJ pulled the car out of the storage shed. I noticed that he was sitting on my beautiful new leather seats in his work clothes, the same ones he wore while sitting on the floor in Bob's shop and wherever else he worked on cars. (Bob does not appear to have a lift in his shop, all work is done the old fashioned way.) Maybe it was my imagination but the driver's seat was starting to look grubby. By this time Bob had driven the car enough to figure out the right rear wheel was rubbing, something they fixed with "shims". He had "gotten the rear brakes to lock up" (this was communicated as if it were somehow good news), had "gotten the car up to 100 mph", and had figured out the gear linkage needed rework as it was not going into 5 and 6 gear. RJ and I killed time (on the clock of course) until Bob showed up. He told me the car could not be driven as the engine mounts needed to be replaced. The motor was "sitting down" on the gear linkage. It seemed to me that the time to check the motor mounts was before installing the motor, but I said nothing at the time.

    Next visit was a couple of weeks later, Aug 24 I believe. For some reason I was not able to drive the car on that visit either. I did note that one of the quarter windows had dislodged itself and needed to be recaulked. I also learned, for the first time, that the motor would not idle smoothly under 1500 rpm; that the car, which was supposed to be level, was not; there was something not right with the custom exhaust system that was causing difficulties getting the ECU map to produce the correct fuel/air mixture across the range of driving conditions; and for the first time I noted that there was a ding in the left rear buttress.

    Anyway since the car was more or less together and out in the parking lot, I took the opportunity to take some photos.

    Meanwhile work continued to get the car done. The plug wires were thought to be the cause of the idle problem, so they were given the heat-shrink tubing treatment. The map was reworked. An exhaust valve was retrofitted and programmed to open under certain conditions bringing the third muffler into play (355s have an exhaust flap that is vacuum-actuated but Bob had initially skipped this exhaust valve when they designed the custom 3-muffler exhaust system.) The flap, Bob explained, was held closed by engine vacuum (another demand on the already-weak vacuum) and triggered to open by the Motec. Presumably this released the vacuum. No canister was installed to buffer the system so all of this opening and closing, it seemed to me, would interfere with the ECU which was partially driven by vacuum. It remains to be seen whether that is part of the reason why the map continues to be problematic.

    Some work was done on the running lights and tail lights, apparently when the fiberglass bodywork was fitted no ground wires were installed. The refaced gauges were installed, after some acrimony with Moma that led to my keeping the console gauges stock. It seems MoMa had lost the silk screens in a fire. They failed to mention this when I sent them my gauges many weeks earlier. The binnacle gauges supplied by Bob were now all red, a silly thing really as the rest of the interior was not GTO correct; and it looked hokey as the tach and the speedo, while both red, did not match each other. The console that I had restored was put back in, with difficulty it appears as a lot of time was billed for the work; and the result was an eyesore. The custom shifter gate was bigger than the original, which interfered with the newly-painted ashtray. I suggested that we make a metal plate for the upper console area and omit the ashtray as I don't smoke and hardly anyone smokes in a Ferrari. Regardless, they stuffed the ashtray in backwards and somewhat skew, and in the process my newly redyed console, despite my warnings, was well-mutilated by the same metal lip that I had asked Bob to be extra careful with.

    It was not until late Sept that I finally got to drive the car. By then the problems with the map were supposedly straightened out, the alignment had been fixed, the exhaust flap done, and (I was surprised to learn) a new $500 set of plug wires had been installed as the initial shrink-tubing fix for the idle problem did not work. The first thing I noticed was that new plug wires did not work either, as the idle was still problematic. I also noted there were no seatbelts in the car. Nevertheless, I pulled out of Bob's driveway, made a right and headed for route 205, hoping for the best.

    As I approached the busy intersection in second gear, I braked and nothing happened. It seemed that despite an entirely new braking system costing a small fortune, including new lines, replacing the front brakes, installing the 355 rear brakes, and a new booster, and making a custom E brake, I had no brakes. The pedal went to the floor! I pumped the pedal several times and was able to bring the vehicle to a halt narrowly averting disaster. I turned around heading in the opposite direction. Bob works from his home on a quiet cul-de-sac. I wanted to at least get out of second gear so I kept going past the entrance to Bob's. By the time I got into third, I noticed a speed bump in the road and thought "oh no, there goes my spoiler". I pumped the pedal hard and to my surprise the brakes functioned this time; but the car jinked violently as one of the rear wheels locked up. This was on a dead straight stretch of road. I corrected and made it over the bump without any expensive noises. At this point I gave up and motored back slowly, noting a (singular) fresh skid mark in the road.

    When I got back, Bob announced he was taking the car out to get more map data and invited me to join him; I declined out of fear for my life and left him to get on with it, after making a list of items that needed to be fixed and leaving it on Bob's desk. That evening, I sent him an email from my hotel revoking most of the list, trimming it to the items that needed to get done so I could drive the car home legally and safely, and telling Bob I needed to keep the final adjusted total on the car to $50K. This list included the seat belts, getting the motor running smoothly, and sorting the brakes.

    He emailed me back a day or so later telling me he drove the car and found no problem with the brakes; then later again, stating they found a check valve that was sticking "intermittently".

    Little did I know this was the last time I would see the car.


    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Nov 23, 2012
    16,047
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    What a nightmare...
     
  24. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2004
    1,120
    Shady Shores, TX
    Full Name:
    Aaron Bunch
    Just a couple things that might help you later:

    Motor mounts can feel tight and work fine, but turn out to be compressed. It’s hard to know this until they are installed, especially in a custom application.

    The exhaust valve is not a vacuum leak. It’s a servo chamber with a spring and a diaphragm in it plus an electric solenoid/vacuum valve. In the exhaust open position the solenoid is shut so no vacuum signal goes to the servo chamber. With an absence of signal the spring holds the exhaust valve open. For the closed signal the solenoid is open and a vacuum signal applied to the diaphragm to pull against the spring. This is not a leak because the vacuum system is still closed, it’s simply pulling on the diaphragm.

    The brakes, I have a guess but don’t know for sure. The amount of engine vacuum available depends on how you drive it....sit and idle for a long time and little/no assist. Decelerate in gear and lots of assist. Pump twice - assist on first pump, less on second pump. It can be unnerving if you aren’t aware. In fact I locked up a rear on my 308 the other night in a dumbass attempt to impress my wife. VW/AUDI have a small electric vacuum pump that I think will help bring some consistency. I bought one two years ago but haven’t installed it. The other direction is to remove the vacuum assist, you’ll have a harder pedal, but at least it will be consistent.

    The missing brake pressure warning light would not help (I think) because you are dealing with a lack of or inconsistent availability of brake assist, not an actual hydraulic problem. However if you want to add one, I suspect there are generic GM versions that can be added and wired to actuate the Ferrari light.

    Building a car from scratch like this (whether or not you knew going in) is a minefield of issues.

    Aaron
     
  25. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 7, 2012
    3,322
    Tallahassee, FL
    Wait wait wait. Wasn't the previous plan to bypass/eliminate the check valve entirely, because it "wasn't needed except to turn on a warning light"?
     

Share This Page