Le Mans Classic 2006 Jim? You have five eligible cars there!
Very cool. Im new to the boards, great to have someone like yourself who openly shares these wonderful bits of history with us. I think I saw you at Lime Rock last year for the Ferrari Days. Do you plan on going again this year? Ted
With a little help from my friends I have found that: The Spyder Tail now on 0854 is from P4 0858 and so stamped. It's lower front side edge has been added to to turn it from P4 to 412P/P3. When we take off her nose we'll learn more. We've also found the Le Mans ACO stamps on her engine near the 0854 stamping. Best
So - rolling back to your post #47... "0858 is stamped into the spyder tail now on 0854 so the carb/FI panel could have been swapped but as I said when I look at it closely I'll be able to tell..." ----- You're as good to go with restoration plans?
Good To Go! When we're done she'll look like this, (Photo curtsey of Paul S.) Image Unavailable, Please Login
So what is on #0858?. I thought #0858 was the P4 that was holier than holey with everything exactly as it left the factory ... obviously not. Thus as Arlie would say ... #0858 has now been proven to be a replica Maybe the tail on #0858 is stamped #0846 ... now wouldn't that be funny and interesting. Pete
0858 is now a 350 Can Am. As Paul S. would say: "Her P4 tail was binned" Once again David collected the pieces and put this one on 0854. Best 2 All!
Maybe you could sell the tail back to the owner of #0858 and make a few bucks ... cause those 350 Can Am's are bloody ugly (IMO). And yes Wayne ... I'm wrong again . Pete
I know ! Im hopping to take some days off in september . When are you taking her for a spin if not already ? Pls take the digicam
Jim . Or, to put it another way, please dont put words into my mouth. Yes the factory may well have discarded #0858s original P4 spyder tail (and other P4-related original bodywork). Dont forget, that by late 1967, with the imminent change in the prototype regulations for 1968, the P4 was effectively obsolete and no longer eligible for world championship events. So, having failed, abysmally, to make any impression in the Can-Am series, the cars and their spares may well have been considered junk by the factory and were sold off cheaply to the privateers like David Piper. So what I would say, Jim, is that makes a great deal more sense (compared to your theory that it was from the burned #0846), particularly if you follow this logic: When #0858 was sold by the factory (still wearing its 350 Can-Am bodywork) to David McKays Australian Scuderia Veloce at the end of 1967, it was supplied with a complete set of spares to support it including engine; gearbox; suspension corners, etc. The car was sold a year later to Paul Hawkins, who raced it with more success (in Team Gunston colours) throughout the latter part of 68 in South Africa, before bringing it to Europe. Hawkins was killed in a nasty accident (in his Lola T70GT) at Oulton Park in May 69. Being a friend of Paul Hawkins, Piper handled the sale of #0858 for Hawkeyes widow to Alistair Walker. As part of the deal, Piper retained the factory spares package from #0858, and years later, with the original P4 spyder front and rear bodywork from #0860, used it to build his continuation-chassied P4 #0900. Now - Pipes may have gained this (front and) rear P4 bodywork for #0858 from the ex-McKay / Hawkins factory spares package or, as likely, he may have picked it up from the Ferrari factory graveyard / Modena scrap dealer or even fellow scavenger Tom Meade. By midway through 69, Pipes had become disenchanted with #0854, as he was unable to wring any more performance from her, to produce a repeat of his race-winning successes with #0854 in 1968. So he changed his allegiance and invested in one of the first available customer Porsche 917s. At this point, when he decided to sell off #0854 to Chris Cord and Steve Earle, #0854 was fitted with rather flimsy and ungainly pseudo-Can-Am fibreglass bodywork. See photo in post #123 One assumes that Cord/Earle wanted the proper and certainly more attractive original 412P bodywork to fit to the car but wanted to re-build her as a spyder. So Pipes chucked in the original P4 spyder tail (and maybe also the nose) from #0858 as part of the deal. The tail section was modified (as you describe, and also by adding a carb hump from #0854s original berlinetta tail), and has been the accepted norm for the last 35 years. IMHO, its certainly a LOT more plausible than your original theory: It will also be very interesting to see what numbers (if any) the nose clip currently fitted to #0854 is stamped with. I wouldnt mind betting that it is also stamped #0858 (not #0854). Why ? Simply because the original larger single (412P) vent in the upper lip of the radiator opening is currently missing from #0854. #0858s nose would have had the two smaller (P4) vents - to either side, which would not have lined up with the 412Ps ducting. Easiest solution ? To blank them off altogether, and have NO vents in the upper lip as #0854 appears today. I can phone David again, if you like, to test his memory once more .
Paul You really have to make an effort to understand American vs. British. When one states "As Paul would say... " " there is implied humor in the statement due to the modifier "as". Besides that, 0858's Spyder Tail and I suspect you are very likely correct, nose, (VERY GOOD DEDUCTION!!!) were "Binned", or sold off by Ferrari as you surmise I really don't understand your distress at that characterization of it's fate. None the less a few points. According to Lee Holman, Alistair Walker maintains that David was simply storing the spares for him, that he maintained ownership of them and that David's selling them off made him "a bit of a naughty boy". Also if 0854's FIA paper's are to be believed David never owned 0854 but title was transfered from Maranello Concessionaires directly to Chris Cord. David obviously had care and custody of 0854 but on the FIA papers he is not listed as it's owner. As I've said the FIA paper's could be wrong. Cheers
Well you lost me on that one, Jim ! I think it's called 'Semantics'. Besides, I can remember you having some MAJOR sense of humo(u)r failures in some of our past discussions. That's why I've tried recently to express or indicate my (attempts at) 'humour' by adding the odd smiley - or - a point lost on a certain other poster, who has recently criticised my use of them. Thanks Jim ! The reason for this line of thought being that David doesn't like to talk (too much) about his odd 'prangs'. When I asked him about what happened to #0854's original aluminium nose, he went very quiet. And you've seen the result of his other subsequent accident at Kyalami in '67, with one of this fibreglass copy noses ! Not distressed, at all, Jim . Just my usual, inquisitive, intrigued (and sometimes provocative) usual self !! That's as may be. I cannot comment on that, and I'm sure David wouldn't want to. Still, as they say: "possession is 9/10th's of the law". Regardless, I personally still think he's a wonderful 'old b*gger' and look forward to meeting him again this Summer. To still be racing at his age, and with an artificial foot ? Absolutely bloody incredible bloke ! Please give him SOME credit, Jim - dodgy second-hand racecar dealer or not ! Jim. If that is the case, then #0854's FIA papers really ought to be amended to include David's ownership. It is a major omission, and possibly a careless mistake on David's part. As you know he was THE major contributor to #0854's competition history. Just check out that sidebar on page 46 of the article on #0854 in the April 1997 issue of Motorsport; or Cavallino #55, page 38; or Barchetta .... 'Nuff said ?
Paul Agree totally. The FIA papers list all of David's involvement and accomplishments with 0854 in great detail just don't list him as one of her owner's. It's possible title for some reason stayed with Maranello until it was transfered to Cord. Once again very good re: 0854's nose I bet you're right. Which ducts are blanked out will tell us more. My only problem may be in the future should I wind up with 0858 and I've mounted her body on 0846. I guess I could keep 0858 as a 350 Can Am... Cheers
Can somebody make this all easier for everybody by designing a web site where you can click and drag the various chassis and body parts across the screen and build your own P4? And if you assemble the correct combinations in the right sequence, an animated version of old Piper pops up and waves a checkered flag and allows you entry into the secret Modena salvage yard for 5 minutes of unlimited parts picking.
LOL! Pretty darn brilliant. Somehow I lost count as well on which nose goes onto what body coming from which mold and donor car.
Surely, Jim, if you did consider buying #0858 (when it comes up for sale at the NEXT Florida tax auction - just a matter of time, I suspect), wouldn't it be best kept as a 350 Can-Am ? It is now the last surviving 'P car' in this body configuration. It may not be 100% original 1967 Can-Am spec. ('Monza' fuel fillers, etc.) but it's not too hard on the eye. Why go to the trouble of mounting #0858's tail (now you know what it is) on '#0846' ? It's not going to add anything to the car's (questionable IMHO ) originality. Why not hang it on your workshop wall, along with all the other spare clips, and get John Hadjuk to beat you out a new (note I didn't say N.O.S., LOL !) P3/4 spyder tail when you convert '#0846' to a spyder ?
