OK. What did you base your opinion on? And when will you answer my simple question. Opinions are like a$$holes, Paul, everyone has one. 1]The question asked by Martin was why wouldn't they save it, patch it? 2]You glibly replied AL repair wasn't easy. 3]I asked how you knew that. 4]You deflected to records about a chassis that I frankly don't give a fock whether it is real or not. I just want to know how you can state it wasn't repaired as if it is fact. Here we go again...Yes,always works that way when you never answer the question at hand, divert back to different argument. So, pick a number.Logic isn't your strong suit. I made it easy. And Wayne, this isn't about Jim. He was confused as was I by your comments on my "offensive" post.
Well I would have thought it was pretty darned obvious, Keyser .... But for your benefit, I'll spell it out .... The factory scrapped #0846's chassis - fact. They probably kept any useful magnesium or other parts that were not damaged in the fire, for either re-smelting, or spares. This is a racing the department we are talking about here .... An outfit (in it's day) not renowned for sentimentality .... Where storage space (for useful body parts) was at a premium. Ferrari already knew, just after Le Mans '67, that the FIA/ACO had changed the engine capacity rules for the prototype category for the following season, that would render the P4's and 412P's obsolete overnight. The (burned) tail clip that was fitted to #0846 would only fit that chassis. So, why even consider repairing a burned and damaged tail clip that would only fit the one chassis, for an obsolete race car, which itself had been scrapped ???? 'Nuff said ? Or am I missing something ? LOL !
Which question was that an answer to? I think it was addressing #4, with opinions again stated as fact. I'd rather hear answers to 1-3 first. Shall I use shorter words? Bigger print? I don't care about 0846 right now, I want to know what you based your glib comments on. We're all waiting for your excuse now. Deflect and distract. Too bad I only have non-digitized references, or I could post lots of pretty pics too. As it is, I can back up how these cars were built, how they are welded/formed, and I don't understand why these guys never fixed it? Why else would Piper have acquired so many spares if they tossed them? How could Tom Shaughnessy, Dick Merritt, et al find all the goodies they do? How did I find NOS sand cast Webers for a few cars 20-30 years ago if they were outdated junk? Please answer any of the above, with supporting evidence.
And yet another thread is wasted ... please STOP refuting P4Replicas stance on #0846! We have been there and done that AND he knows a heck of a lot more than 90% of us regarding P3 and P4 Ferraris. Now we already have well and truly documented his opinion (which is the opinion of many historians, that believe Ferrari records) and we have Jim's, with mounting evidence as time ticks by. So lets get back to discussing P3 tails as believe it or NOT the rest of us that are actually interested in the CAR, DO find P4Replicas comments interesting and historically significant. This is how proving fact from fiction works ... somebody raises what they know and then somebody else offers are different or confirming opinion, we work with that until we ALL gain knowledge. Now we have an Off Topic section for the small minded rest of you ... please go there and squabble, otherwise keep the debate to the CAR. So where were we: P4Replica's point was that Ferrari would not have fixed that rear deck ... I agree, but that does not mean that it was not repaired (maybe by Piper or Tom?), OR as Jim pointed out that it was not a spare for #0846. So for Jim's sake can we just discuss calmly and also maybe wait until he gets his hands on it ... without resorting to the prove it comments, no you prove it, etc. ... yawn! Pete
Thanks Pete. I said I don't care about 0846. I don't know why they would NOT have fixed it, even if to have a spare. I care about these cars too, have been around them more than a little, and I doubt I am small minded. Believe what you wish.
... the thing we need to filter from some posts is the facts not how they are told. Not all of us are blessed with the highest level of writing/communication skills or tack ... but I've choosen to ignore that now and move on. I've never actually been close to a real one or replica myself . I'm a deprived southern hemisphere species Pete
From post #127, from Paul: "The Factory scrapped #0846's chassis - fact." Not looking for an argument, not looking to stir the pot, just asking a question: What is the basis for this statement?
Jim/Paul, Please correct any errors that I may make in trying to answer this (I am answering in hopes that it helps me better understand it also.) Jeff, IIRC, this isn't disputed. Jim's document, provided in the Rossa section, outlines what he believes: That the chassis of 0846 was stripped of useable parts and sent to the junkyard by the Scuderia, the "junk" chassis changed hands a couple times, and eventually was used as a "head start" on a P4 commissioned for David Piper (Piper thought he was getting newly a fabricated chassis.) Jim G. bought it, discovered that it bore repairs that were indicative of the documented 0846 damage, and the rest is history.
I agrfee with this sentiment 100%. Lee, believe it or not, it appears that you're intentionally provoking Paul. Please don't. As I told you in my PM, if you read this thread from the beginning, it was nothing more than a civil discussion until your first post. What did you call him? A nob? And for everyone else, drop the '0846 Chassis' argument here and now. We've been there and done that. Let's talk about something new, shall we? Any more inflamatory posts or posts about the validity of Jim's claims to 0846's chassis after this point will be deleted and the offending user will be banned for a period of 10 days.
My first post was #23. I posted several other posts in this thread, even picked on my friends Dale and Stu. I am NOT the instigator here, and I have stated 0846 is irrelevant to me. It is not about Jim G either. It is about a condescending, know-it-all, intransigent denizen who refuses to answer simple questions, instead returning to a mantra. I'd love to learn about these cars from anyone, as long as they stick to business at hand. I may even know a bit about them. This thread was a "Hey. look what folowed me home" thread. It was back-slapping and mirth until the "Cloud of Unknowing" weighed in, kvetching about grilles and slot-cars. Again, believe what you will. I know you and many others know me better than that. People should be able to back up even the most offhand comments, as you have chastised. I am glad 0854 has a new owner, may he enjoy it in peace. Now, I'm off to the Pope thread for some sanity...no, wait, that's not right. Duly chastised and threatened.... PS:Nob=glans...pissing on parade. Guess his smileys excuse all. Here's mine
If Arlie is passing judgement here, I guess I got promoted to an appeals court when no one was looking. Can't wait to see the car in the metal.
thanks for taking the time to explain Paul, "i get it" now. so the tail section was badly damaged ( though it looks fixable ) and was fitted to 0846, which will not fit a "true" P4, only a P3/4, of which there was only one. i was just wondering , if a early coupe's tail could have been modified or cut out as repair stock to fix the burned section. it seems from the posts that the p4 coupes lines, and door shunts ect are too different for use as a repair on the p3/4 tail. the roofline modificatio from a spyder to a coupe, must be unique car to car, as these cars , at this level are different even when compared to each other. i bet 0854 will have some great scars and tales to tell....... off to work i go! cheers to all.
A few points if I may. Paul You didn't say the tail now on 0854 is stamped 0858 it's former owner did. Lee and Carreaper are correct the damage could have been repaired. We cut and weld alloy all the time. Look at the 002C thread. That's not to say it was just that it could have been. When it arrives we'll know. The fact remains that a P3 Spyder tail would have to be unique because of the door shunt line. The Photos you posted of 0846 with a fiberglass tail HAVE a P4 SHUNT LINE. As I now of course have that tail as well and the rivet heads are cast into the fiberglass, I will also soon know whether David pulled it from the tail which is now on 0854 by somehow adding a lower shunt line. The uniqueness is what leads me to believe: It's an original/repaired tail once fitted to 0846. (Le Mans or Targa tails would both need repair) or It's an original spare for 0846 or It's beaten off the original 0846 Buck by Allegretti http://forums.atlasf1.com/printthre...?threadid=59074 Amongst several posts of interest: ______ Posted by Alan Baker on 16-Jul-03 20:38: (he goes into great detail about time and place of berlinetta/spyder configurations of the P3s & 4s, Can Am, etc., where decklid meets door, so on and so forth ) FWIW, Brands Hatch plays a central role as to why certain cars were spydered OF COURSE 0846's CHASSIS WAS SCRAPPED BY FERRARI. As Dave has reminded, and I have pointed out, SCRAPPED DOES NOT MEAN DESTROYED. It is also FACT that MANY after studing the evidence I've presented and inspecting my car (0846) have come to believe that I am quite right about that.
There was one P3/4 Spyder born - 0846. All other P3's, P3/4's and P4's were created as Berlinettas. Brands Hatch in '67, for instance, saw 0856, 0858 and 0860 converted beforehand, as the heat was unbearable in the very twisty, slower racing conditions. In fact, they ended up chucking the side screens during the race in order to get more circulation in the cockpit. Eventually, all P3's, P3/4's and P4's except 0848 and 0850 became Spyders.
P3 0844 became a Can Am spyder but it is now a Coupe. http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/forum/showthread.php?t=56336 P 3/4 0846 became a P4 Coupe but will become a P 3/4 Spyder again. 412 P 0854 became a 412 Spyder but will become a 412 Coupe again. A bit sadly there will be no more P4 coupes when I'm done. Strange how all of this has/is working out. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56385
One very small thing that I find a little confusing is that I read an article in a recent MotorSport magazine where they discussed Amon doing a few laps at I think Brand Hatch in a then old P4 (I think). Anyway my point was the author discussed the P3 as being not as clean/good looking as the P4 ... I can't tell the bloody difference!, but I know they are different as Jim and others continually explain different door shut lines, etc. Thus will #0846 suddenly become an ugly duckling returning it back to a P3/4 Spyder ... or does the '/4' part mean it has enough P4 in it to be again good looking (actually I think #0846 after the conversion wore P4 clothes ... so I have answered my own stupid question ... er, maybe?). Pete
Er, so a 412 Coupe is different to a P4 Coupe, bodywise? Can you please explain how? I believe 412 = carb's, but otherwise same engine as a pukker P4? Pete
This says it better than I can: http://www.sportscarmarket.com/profiles/2000/November/Ferrari/ "P4 was still a four-liter car with a three-valve cylinder head. This extra breathing helped the P4 to produce 450 hp, 30 more than the P3. The sometimes unreliable ZF transaxle was replaced with a Ferrari-built unit; other major changes were a shorter wheelbase and wider track. The last years P3s were updated to the wheels and uprights of the P4, these converted cars are called '412P.'" ___ So, 412P's shared same bodywork as P3's, because, well, they were P3's. That is why they share the deck & door meet down low featurette. It was part and parcel of the P3 design. P4's deck bottoms out a few inches higher than P3, 412P P3/4. If a P4 decklid doesn't fit, you must acquit. ___ Oversimplified, but the nuts and bolts of the sum of parts are there.
To my understanding, 412P´s were modified P3´s and sold to privateers. So a 412P was never factory-raced, right?
Hi Yes 412P's were "Customer cars". 0848 was Filpauladi, (Pls. excuse sp.). 0850 Forcamshamp, and 0854 Marlenello Concessionaires. However I believe the factory borrowed 0850 and damaged her so they "lent" P4 0856 to Forcamshamp for Le Mans. That's why at the 67 Le Mans race 0856 had a yellow stripe. For those interested in the specifics here are the Factory Technical Specs. (In French) which also prove that Paul M. (Macca) is quite right about 0846 originally having a 593 transmittion, which as I go into in my 100 pages is currently in 0846, and later having a 603R transmittion. The 412P's originally had ZF's and later 603R's. As an aside I will be changing 0846 over to a 603R transmition when I reconvert her to a Spyder. Paul M is quite correct. 0846's build sheets speak for themselves. It's original gearbox was type 593 P3 not ZF as was used later in 0848/0850/0854 all of which were finally uprated to 603R's. Ferrari 330 P3 Berlinette et Spider Drogo de 1966 Mécanique Moteur type 216 B, V12 à 60° de 3966.89cc, cylindrée unitaire 330.57cc, bloc moteur en Silumin, soutenu par quatre pattes dans le châssis, culasses type 216, en Silumin à deux soupapes par cylindre, carters en magnésium et en aluminium, chemises en fonte, vilebrequin tourillonnant dans sept paliers, distribution commandée par chaîne, à deux arbres à cames en tête par rangée de cylindres. Alimentation par injection indirecte, pompe à injection Lucas, pompe à essence électrique Bendix. Allumage à deux bougies par cylindre, deux distributeurs et quatre bobines Marelli. Lubrification par carter sec, radiateur et réservoir de 10 litres. Circuit de refroidissement par pompe centrifuge et radiateur situé à l'avant. Taux de compression 11,4:1. Puissance maximum de 420 ch à 8000 tr/min. Embrayage Borg & Beck multidisque. Boîte / pont type 593 à cinq rapports et marche arrière, différentiel autobloquant, différents rapports de boîte de vitesse et de pont disponibles. Ferrari 412 P Berlinette Drogo de 1967 Voitures réalisées avec les deux châssis de réserve, non terminées en 1966 avec les mêmes caractéristiques que la P3 / 412 sauf : Mécanique Boîte / pont ZF remplacée par une boîte / pont Ferrari type 603 R à partir de 24 Heures du Mans sur 0854 et des 1000 kilomètres de Paris sur 0850. Châssis Réservoirs d'essence de 151 litres. Poids à vide avec la boîte ZF : 833kg. Empattement 2412 mm. Carrosserie Berlinette type 604 avec sept fentes sur les côtés du capot arrière de 0850 et 0854. Réalisation en tôle d'aluminium avec les portes en polyester.... selon les mêmes dessins que ceux de la carrosserie des P3 / 412 P. Châssis 0850 , 0854 Châssis n° 0850 de 1967 Berlinette Ecurie Francorchamps Châssis type 604, moteur type 241, boîte de vitesses ZF type 5DS puis Ferrari type 603 R après les 1000 kilomètres de Spa-Francorchamps, carrosserie type 604, roues 593. Pete Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder but this is what's in my eye. The good news is that when we derivited 0846 a lot of sand poured out. Happily we saved some as we believe this sand got into 0846 when she raced at Daytona. When a friend restored a Corvette that had tested at Daytona (CERV ONE) he noted that sand poured of of that car as well. We plan to use the sand to sand blast the nose to acheive the same look. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Moving back to 0846 for a moment. Here's a photo of 0846 the morning AFTER the Le Mans fire of 1967. I believe that after this fire 0846 was returned to the Ferrari Factory, investigated, deconstructed, and scrapped. I also believe that the scrapped chassis remains of 0846, at least 95% of the original chassis, survived and are now in my car along with other original parts of 0846 which I've specificated in my 100 page document. This photo is copyrighted by British Pathe. I have licensed it's use. Image Unavailable, Please Login
