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Mystery Vignales...

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by kare, Feb 11, 2025.

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  1. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #1 kare, Feb 11, 2025
    Auto Sport Review Magazine stated in October 1953: "... one day Luigi Chinetti... came visiting (Alfred Ducato).... When he saw the impeccable care Ducato had lavished on his 2.3 (195) coupe he was impressed. So impressed that he said: 'Mr. Ducato, I am going to do something for you – I am going to see that you get the most beautiful car in the world"

    Do we know which 195 Ducato owned and where did it go? Are there any pictures?
     
  2. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran
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    #2 Aardy, Feb 11, 2025
    October 1953 ? 212 inter rather ? Then 0271EU…
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #3 miurasv, Feb 11, 2025
    195 Inter Vignale Coupe 0091S. See here.
     
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  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 Marcel Massini, Feb 11, 2025
    0091 S lives in Minnesota since May 2023, after having been stored for fifty years.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 Marcel Massini, Feb 11, 2025
    What was the S/N of the 250 GT Coupé Pinin Farina and the 250 GT LWB California Spider and the 250 GTE 2+2 which were once owned by Alfredo Ducato?

    Marcel Massini
     
  6. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran
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    #6 Aardy, Feb 11, 2025
    If it’s true Ducato owned 0091S, then 0271EU must be « the most beautiful car in the world » promised by Chinetti…
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #7 miurasv, Feb 11, 2025
    Chinetti was a great salesman.
     
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  8. PG1964

    PG1964 Formula Junior

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    #8 PG1964, Feb 11, 2025
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  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 Marcel Massini, Feb 11, 2025
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  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 Marcel Massini, Feb 11, 2025
    0091 S sold new to AICAR (Agenzia Internazionale Commercio Automobili e Ricambi) in Milan which became WI.PU.CO. S.r.l., Franco Cornacchia in Milan.
    Cornacchia showed 0091 S on 3 February 1951 at the Concorso d'Eleganza di Viareggio in Italy, the car was painted deep green with a black roof, see photo on page 25 of the Italian magazine "Auto Italiana", Anno XXXII, issue #3, dated 15 February 1951.
    Later on Cornacchia sold 0091 S via Chinetti to Alfredo Ducato. He sold 0091 S to William L. Keating in Orinda, CA, who showed it 10 April 1954 at the 5th Annual Pebble Beach Concours.
    See photo on page 172 of Robert T. Devlin's book "Pebble Beach Concours d'Elégance - A Matter of Style 1950-1979".

    Marcel Massini

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  11. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran
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    #11 Aardy, Feb 11, 2025
    What about the orange lights in nose on William L. Keating‘s Vignale coupe ? Why period pics and the one in your Ferrari by Vignale’s book shows white lamps ?
     
  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 Marcel Massini, Feb 11, 2025
    Of course you are trying to say that the Keating car was not 0091 S........

    Marcel Massini
     
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  13. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #13 kare, Feb 11, 2025
    Hold you horses, gentlemen!

    Ducato must have sold his 195 when he received 212 Coupé 0271EU in April 1953. It likely went to W. L. Keating, who showed it in Pebble beach 1954 and won 2-seater sports car class over $10.000. The car had a very different front bumper comparing to 0091/S and was a two-tone so it was a different car - or then it had been crashed hard and repaired. That is unlikely.

    On the other hand Viviano Corradini raced a similar coupé in Allentown PA/USA on 3/aug/52, and as I cannot really see Ducato lending his precious car to be raced on the other side of continent, we need to find another car. It would be most likely that Corradini had 0091/S and Ducato/Keating had another one.

    That's why it would be nice to find a photo of Ducato's 195.
     
  14. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran
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    #14 Aardy, Feb 11, 2025
    Dear Marcel, you know me very well ! :D
     
  15. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #15 kare, Feb 11, 2025
    The middle could be the same, but the nose and the rear are different. Maybe it was crunched between two trucks!
     
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  16. 166tom

    166tom Rookie
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    #16 166tom, Feb 11, 2025
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  17. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #17 kare, Feb 12, 2025
    Fantastic! Are there any documents that would disclose the serial number 0091/S?

    The completely different front bumper is disturbing. I know this is going to make some of you jumping up and down but I still think we might be looking at serial number 0095/S or 0099/S. These are two nearby serial numbers that should be thoroughly rethinked. Please PROVE me wrong!
     
  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Marcel Massini, Feb 12, 2025
    0095 S had a massive chromed side stripe on the fender, going from the center of the front wheel arch straight to the door. The position of the white-ish blinkers (circular turn signal lights) is different, it is between the headlight and the grille and not below the headlights. Of course, stuff like chrome stripes and blinkers can fall off.......

    0099 S looks completely different.

    Marcel Massini
     
  19. PG1964

    PG1964 Formula Junior

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    #19 PG1964, Feb 12, 2025
    Because the new 1959 Italian road rule (codice della strada) imposed the orange color for all the turning lights.
     
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  20. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran
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    #20 Aardy, Feb 12, 2025
    And how do you explain the Keating’s Vignale coupe had already orange lights at Pebble Beach 1954 ?
     
  21. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #21 kare, Feb 12, 2025
    Assumed 0095/S, and assumed 0099/S. I might as well raise the stakes by saying "incorrectly assumed" but hesitate to do so as I am not prepared to share any evidence for such claim, but I repeat that these are two nearby serial numbers need to be thoroughly rethinked. The design elements just did not exist at the time when these serial numbers were built i.e. late 1950. I must remind you all that 0097/S was also seriously misunderstood until ACI/PRA documents proved it to have been a m/50 coupe with panoramic rear window - likely the last one of four cars built.
     
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  22. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #22 kare, Feb 12, 2025
    That airport photo is even more perplexing. Airport photos were usually taken when cars had just been flown in and I would think even more so when a photo was taken in front of a pair of Douglas Skymaster freight planes.
     
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  23. Aardy

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    #23 Aardy, Feb 12, 2025
    The airport photo shows orange lighs, like 1954 Pebble Beach…
     
  24. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #24 kare, Feb 12, 2025
    Exactly, that's why I said perplexing. And don't forget that Viviano Corradini was racing a similar coupé in Allentown, PA/USA in 1952. There must have been two different cars, one stored for decades by Rolland W. Peterson in MN/USA (0091S) and another that seems to have been lost forever.
     
  25. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran
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    #25 Aardy, Feb 12, 2025
    Exactly : one with orange lights and the second (the Peterson’s car) with white lights…
     
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