NART 250P LAP RECORD

Here is a question for you NART racing experts:
I have a pile of NART racing docs which includes a 3 page original item entitled 'LAP RECORD' stating car #26 along with '250P'. It goes up to 163 laps with Parsons/Pedro as drivers. So what race is this?

 

Sebring 1969: DNF 26 Pedro Rodriguez/Chuck Parsons Ferrari 330P3 [0838] North American Racing Team 163 laps

 

That sounds right but why would the lap record say 250 if it was a 330?

 

Racing Sports Cars and barchetta says it was 250P #0816 at Sebring 1969 driven by Rodriguez and Parsons in car #26.

Sebring 12 Hours 1969 - Photo Gallery - Racing Sports Cars

Rodriguez and Parsons also raced at Le Mans 1967 in car #26 #0838 but the fastest lap there was by Hulme and Ruby in car #4, a Holman & Moody entered 7 litre Ford GT40.

Le Mans 24 Hours 1967 - Photo Gallery - Racing Sports Cars
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Does anyone know the whereabouts of #0816? Or contact info?
thanks

 

Hmm. Conflicting information out there. Barchetta also says that Pedro Rodriguez and Chuck Parsons raced at Sebring 1969 in 330P3 (converted to Can Am) in #0844 car no. 26. In the same listing for #0844 it lists that Rodriguez raced it at 1967 Le Mans with Baghetti, not Parsons, car #25, not #26.


It says 250P here and 0844 which is a P3: All.Ferraris - Ferraris in Sebring 1969 Though it does say DNF Lap 163.

If you click on the 0844 in the above listing it gives the details below:

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/Detail/0844.330P3.htm

Wikipidia lists of races for Pedro Rodriguez states: Sebring 1969 - 330 P3 - Co driver - Chuck Parsons.
Le Mans 1967 - 412P - Co driver - Giancarlo Baghetti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Rodr%C3%ADguez_(racing_driver)

Why would Rodriguez be racing an old 250P in 1969? In spite of Racing Sports Cars giving the car at Sebring as 0816, I'm gong to say that Boudiwijn is probably right as he normally is.

 

In this case, I doubt if "Lap Record" has anything to do with completing a lap in the quickest time. It's probably a record of the times for each of the 163 laps that the car completed before it retired.

The 1969 Sebring race report in Autoweek reads: "Not all of the Ferraris at Sebring were new. In fact, the Chuck Parsons/Pedro Rodriquez prototype was the first of the P series and looked every bit as old and battered as its six-year history would imply. Parsons, with true devotion, nursed the stuttering hulk for several hours until mechanics were able to locate and change a bad filter and fuel pump combination."

Sports Car Graphic calls the #26 Ferrari: "...a prehistoric 3-litre 250P..."

 

...in that case it probably was 250P #0816 as pictured above.

 

thanks, you guys are amazing; so knowledgeable!

 

Well, as it just so happens, I was there. I had been working for Luigi Chinetti Motors and NART for two years while going to college at U of Ct. I started out cleaning cars (275 GTB4,s and such), but by the time Sbring 1969 rolled around, the chief mechanic, Nereo Iori trusted me enough to turn wrenches. The car (0816) came in on trade from Col. Cooper against the Fantuzzi rebodied P2 0838 around the beginning of January. Since the International Championship of makes regs had changed and Prototypes were limited to three liters, Mr Chinetti decided to take this poor old thing and make it into a car that could contest the Prototype class. Ferrari was running the 312P and had no cars for the concessionaire teams (NART ended up buying the two remaining 312P's next year). Chinetti always wanted to make the show so what start money and sponsorship dough was available had to be enough to get the project off the ground. We had a two month thrash to try and make the old girl look presentable. I remember that we tried to lighten it as much as possible so everything that could come out and anything that could be drilled, was. The 330 motor that had been in it was replaced by a three liter 250 unit that I am pretty sure came out of Interim Belinetta 1377 which had been sitting around derelict in the back of the shop. All the bits were fettled and even the rear deck was remade in fiberglass to lighten it. Lots of late nights to rebuild everything, but it got finished just before the Factory mechanics arrived with the 312P for Mario and Chris Amon, with at least a ton and and a half of spares. The 312 looked like a space ship from planet Zongo when it rolled of the truck from the ariport, that was one good looking race car. Anyway, We packed up the tractor with all the NART equipment ( another ton and a half) and set off for Florida with Dick Taylor, Chinettis long time logistics guy, Dino Pignatti, who was the Factory transport manager and mechanic, and me riding in the sleeper. A few adventures later we arrived in Sebring. The 250P was slow by any reckoning and Pedro Rodriguez was simply apalled that a driver of his stature was going to have to drive this thing against the Factory 312 and the entries from Autodelta and Porsche, not to mention the contingent of five liter GT40's and T70's in the Sport category. 0816 was gridded 19th, last in its class and I think Charlie Kolb started. Charlie was an excellent driver and worked it up the ladder as much as he could. Then Pedro started and he was wailing on it. Passed a number of cars and was really making this thing go. As the race wore on it became a bit obvious that old Pedro was trying a bit too hard and some would have it trying to kill the car so he could go home. As it hapened around lap 168 the clutch packed in for good. Charlie had been shifting without it for a while, but, he couldn't keep it together to the end. It died out on the course and I went out to baby sit it until the end of the race. We had completed enough laps to be classed as a finisher in 47th and last place. I think by the time we had rolled the car onto the truck, Pedro was already in Miami.

 

Great story, Ted. Thanks so much for posting!


Onno

 

Barchetta is wrong (as it often is) and looking at the photo there's no way that is a 330P3.
Pedro was a works Ferrari driver but Ferrari only sent one 312P to Sebring and Pedro wanted to race, so he turned to Chinetti who he had driven for many times. But Chinetti only had a 206 S, and a 206 GT entered, so Pedro asked him to prepare something quicker. The 250P was what he got.
Nathan

 

My friend.

 

I've put the 3 page lap record on ebay:

Ferrari Nart Chinetti 250P Sebring Lap Record 1969 | eBay

stuart

 

A great story.May there be more of these.1377 GT is the first SWB Interim and so an historicly significant machine.I have Chuck Parsons as the other driver at Sebring with William Cooper as reserve. Yes or no? After Sebring the car was returned to Chinetti, disassembled and stored until Bardinon bought it in 19?? Help!! tongascrew

 

AFIK-the car was rolled at on LI in mid to late 1960s(there is a well know picture of the hulk sitting ouside-in the elements-with a mildly caved in roof)...
it was a slow "tip and roll over" affair after a shunt into the sandy apex...so goes the urban "legend"...

the car was with Luigi Jr. for the next zillion years..
it went to Italy for body repairs many years ago,
returned to CT, and was in cold storage for many many years...
I inspected it-as described-on more than one occassion.
IMO: what a car!
Team car, 5th OA as team car at LM, 1stSWBbody style onLWB format: thus "interim"
However-it was a-the ONLY-Pininfarina made version, the ONLY one...additionally,
it was one of only a few with "DF" outside plug engines, which in REALITY, were 128LM blocks with "hi cheeked "bearing journals, dry sump crankshafts(different oiling hole drill locations), scallopped(shell milled) engine block walls, mostly elektron casting extras, a "stone catcher" frot timing chain box(mag also-see 250 TR style)...

This was a TEAM car, built as such, and was faster in a straight line, than the then current TRs, down the Mulsanne in a straight line...but would be passed in corners everytime by the TRs, as the LWB-nee Tdf chassis-was crude and outdated by this juncture when compared to the other front line cars' chassis then being fielded by all the other major Teams competeing...

the engine was missing in action all the way back to shortly after the roll over...
what, and where, the original block is for this chassis is still a topic of conjecture, with several as yet unproven and unverified scenarios...it might be known-but remains UNPROVEN?UNSUBSTANTIATED, or, and equally as likely, it is lost to the ages...

What IS significant about the comments by TEJ77 as to suitability for installation into an early P chassis(0816-1964 1st OA LM winner!) is that the 128LM block is essentially(gross casting dimentionality wise) what is used in 210 type motors which is what all early LMs and P cars used when in 250 and 275 formats...this has to do with casting sublties not generally known to the general public/audience...
principally the diameter of the register for the "bell housing" being a uniquely smaller size(transaxles) in diameter, as well as a narrower vertical, center to center diameter distances, between the two rear engine mount arms, these are narrower....
thus, suitability for it to be retro fitted to either a P car of this type/or LM, can only EASILY be done with these very distinct, and precious few competition blocks.

This is NOT to say that it cant be done with any other 128F/168/213c/211 blocks-becaused it can and it WAS...
additionally, the 163/C bloccks used in 330P format are also different than 209 mounting and thus, factually "welding, chopping, an hacking" was also required to run as a 4-liter....
I care for a car such as this, and do know....

Again, there are a variety of stories as to where it went, how, and why...
but until Proven otherwise, who really KNOWS?

AFIK, the car is STILL in Luigi Jrs collection....and very nearly completely restored....
IMO, a very, very interesting car, and with some significant anecdotal historical notes....

 

Anyone know what engine 0816 has in it today?

How about the rear deck? Does it have it's original alloy back?

 

#0814 (or its remains) were rebuilt in Italy (Brandoli, I believe) and according to Steve Hill, the purchaser of the other car (#0812) it contained very few original parts as reborn due to its hard life and being rebodied. #0812 & #0814 were embroilled in court action in the late 1990s while being rebuilt as Ferrari argued they were not Ferraris since there were few original parts left, Chinetti argued successfully that they may not be totally authentic/ original but they each contained all of the remaining parts from the two cars and thus carried their provenance. Further arguments over the court case Chinetti v Ferrari Spa over the 166 F2 car in the Museum revealed that Chinetti had sold 3 cars and insinuated they were the last 3 actually owned by the family...........

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/377628-chinetti-sues-ferrari-17.html - Post 323
&
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/377628-chinetti-sues-ferrari-17.html

All of the 1st series P cars have interesting histories

#0810 - Wang collection (may have moved on?)
#0812 - As above
#0814 - As above
#0816 - The '64 Le Mans winner > Bardinon/ Mas du Clos (May have also been sold)
#0818 - The ex. Petheroe car that is in Austria but Ferrari has classiched the Violati car in Italy (see other threads on this here forum)
#0820 - McCaw collection for a while, now Barchetta claims its in Germany
#0822 - Bardinon/ Mas du Clos but sold in 2006 to the UK (in the care of Terry Hoyle)

 

LeMans finished 5th or 6th overall?? tongascrew