Need expert help with multiple misfires | FerrariChat

Need expert help with multiple misfires

Discussion in '360/430' started by Gtiso, Feb 28, 2013.

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  1. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
    36
    Miami
    Full Name:
    John
    On my 99 360 I am getting 5 codes
    P0132 oxygen sensor circuit high voltage bank 1 sensor 1
    P0300 random multiple misfire detected
    P0301 cylinder 1 misfire detected
    P0150 oxygen sensor circuit bank 2 sensor 1
    P0308 cylinder 8 misfire detected
    I need some help figuring out where to start
    Are the oxygen sensor codes due to the misfires?
    Or am I having some sort of fuel delivery problem due to the o2 sensors
    All help is greatly appreciated
     
  2. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    Eddie B
    Can you see adaptive values with your tester? Post them if so....
    Couple of possibilities come to mind:

    1. Intake manifold gasket leak.
    2. Leakage in breather system; roll over valve fractured/loose cap/charcoal canister pipes
     
  3. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
    36
    Miami
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    John
    I only have a code reader so I can't see any adaptive values
    Is there any way to narrow down the possibilities?
    Finding a leak can be difficult how do I troubleshoot
     
  4. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    Apr 28, 2004
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    I happen to agree with Eddie. Check for a intake leak. Get some spray brake clean or carb cleaner (available at any parts store) and spray it around the base of the intake runners one at a time while the engine is running. If you hear a deviation, or note a change in engine RPM etc then you have found your leak.

    One caveat - brake clean etc is flammable. Do not spray directly towards exhaust parts.
     
  5. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
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    #5 Trent, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    +1; intake gasket failure is #1 cause of this type of symptom. You can sometimes view the leak because there is an oily residue on the outside where the gasket has failed. This sounds strange because the intake is usually at a lower pressure than the engine bay.

    I recommend a visual inspection, keep flammable liquids away from the engine. Always have an extinguisher handy; always.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
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    John
    I am ordering a set of intake gaskets this could very well be the problem
    I am not familiar with a roll over valve
    Does anyone have a part number or picture
    Does the 99 model have one?
     
  7. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    As you have a Modena,Take the engine bay trims out each side and you will see them on top of the fuel tank. Just look for a broken pipe and have a sniff around the top of the valve sela for fuel vapor odour. As said above, get an inspection light and have a good look around the base of the intake manifold, large leaks manifest themselves by having bits of intake gasket poking out or brown residue at the flange area.
     
  8. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

    Jun 30, 2009
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    Start the engine and spray some carbulator cleaner near all the intake manifold trumpets, idf there is a leak you will notice a change on the idle.
    Do this before you take that intake manifold out, big job for someone not familiar with it.
     
  9. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
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    Ok I used a whole can of carb/choke cleaner and I can not get any difference in idle
    I have the drip pans off and I do not see any obvious signs of a fuel leak
    I am still not sure where the rollover valve is
    What can I try next?
     
  10. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
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    John
    Looking at the top of the fuel tank there is a valve on the tank ref14 part 180384
    Is this it?
    It appears to be fine no visible damage or fuel smell
     
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Those are roll over valves.. and by the part number it would seem that you own a european car. No fuel smell means suggests they are not leaking or cracked.
     
  12. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
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    John
    I was just using that part number to confirm that is what we are talking about
    They seem to be fine and spraying the carb cleaner on the bases is the intake doesn't seem to make a difference I am not sure what else I can try to narrow down the possibilities
     
  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    So much of this is a rule-out process unfortunately.

    Now that there is no cracked stem on either of those valves or the other two that look like them and you have tried the spray to the intake.. thsi leaves you with two other options..

    Oxygen sensors or the misfires. I'd go with the misfires on Cylinder 1 and cylinder 8. The coil packs are known to go on these cars due to heat in the engine compartment. I had to replace 2 on my car and probably have to replace another soon.. The way I might test this is to remove the one on cylinder 1 and cylinder 2. Then take out the spark plugs. Look at the color of the tip. If there is a difference in color for plug 1, it might suggest the coil isn't firing, leading to a rich mixture on the plug.

    Not sure if this helps.. but this is what I would consider as a next step personally.
     
  14. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

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    I had a similar problem years ago. It was driving me crazy! Changed coils, sparks, sensors and other stuff. At the end it everything was caused from the alternator positive cable got welded to the block causing all this electrical mess! Don't ask me how that son of a bit* got welded but it was very strange.
    This was my case, I'm not saying you have the same. Take it to a reputable mechanic which is familiar to the car.
     
  15. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    Damn, I would have put money on that.

    Okay, well I have an abundance of new coil packs if you want to try that. Pretty simple install, and like Doc Curt said you can just swap them with others from different cylinders to test if you prefer. The coil packs can be pricy but if you need 'em just drop me a note. I can help a brother out.
     
  16. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
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    Ok I cleaned the 2 grounds under the left drip pan before I put it back on
    I also cleared out all of the codes and swapped the coil packs between the number 1 and 3 cylinders
    I took it out for a spin and it seemed to be running pretty good
    I checked for codes when I got home and I have 1 code
    P1114
    What the heck is going on?
     
  17. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    P1114? coolant temp?

    It may be an erroneous code. Drive again & see. Take three drive cycles before bed then call me in the morning :).
     
  18. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Exactly.. Could be a spurious code. See if its consistent.
     
  19. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

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    Can you put an OBD2 reader on your car that reads and preferably graphs real time data? If so look at all 4x O2 sensor values from cold to warm up. Make sure the values make since. The car will run rich at cold start, then lean out as it warms, but we are looking for values off the scale or erroneous.

    The misfires and O2 dont seem related; Misfires would be;

    1. Intake gasket leak causing lean condition beyond ignition ratio
    2. Spark plug foul
    3. COP not sparking because of;
    .a. Bad COP
    .b. Wiring
    .c. ECU
    4. FI. The FIs can also be swapped around, but pulling the rails is not for the faint of heart and please make sure the battery is disconnected and no fuel pressure is in the system.
    5. Compression/Leakdown test. For a misfire you will likely be able to see it with a compression test. This is an easy test as you are pulling plugs and swapping COPs.

    Tool recommendation:
    OBD2 readers:
    Autel AL519:
    List $160
    Amazon: $90

    Innova 3130: (3130,3140,3160 all graph, the 3150 does not)
    Retail: $350
    Amazon: $169

    Innova 3160:
    Retail: $459
    Amazon: $179

    Compression Tool:
    Amazon: $54: OTC 5606 Compression Tester Kit : Amazon.com : Automotive
    Leakdown:
    Amazon: $58
    OTC 5609 Cylinder Leakage Tester Kit : Amazon.com : Automotive
     
  20. Gtiso

    Gtiso Rookie

    Jun 9, 2010
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    Cleared the codes and took the car out for another run
    It took about 5 miles for the cel light to come on and the slow down to come In the window
    I plugged the code reader in and got 1 code p0150
    Now I am really getting confused the only consistent thing is the 02 sensors but I know the sensors are good I already replaced all 4 and I can't imagine a 4 going out at the same time
     
  21. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
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    Note that the OBD2 reader will tell you what the ECU thinks the O2 values are. This will verify the sensors, wiring, and ECU hardware. I think its worth a look.

    Some other way out guesses:
    1. Fuel pressure
    2. Clogged exhaust.
     
  22. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    O2 sensor codes are typically the result of something that is wrong upstream. If you cleared the codes, a 5 mile drive is probably not going to give you much unless you followed the readiness cycle (that is at least 20 minutes if you follow the specific WSM process, even then you may not have all system ready...). I worked through a similar issues and agree with Rustybits - intake gaskets, common problem on many F-cars of that vintage (360, 550, 456). The cleaner/butane trick is really not that effective on computerized car like the 360, replacing the gasket is easy and cheap. Next I would try the coils which may be starting to fail if it's an older/ higher mileage car.... relatively cheap to replace if you get the part from Bosch vs. Ferrari (I replaced the full set for less $500 delivered from the UK).
     
  23. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
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    Worn out spark plugs are the biggest killer of coil packs...

    O.k, it's all getting speculative now, a simple OBD tester with no facility to view fuel adaptions and little knowledge of how a 360 works is likely to end in tears.

    Take it to somebody who knows how to fix it and get it sorted....
     
  24. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Interesting. I always thought it was due to degradation of the coil, leading to increased resistance. Thanks Eddie! You learn something every day... :)

    As Eddie says above, we're all just guessing without having the car in front of us... Sometimes it is the cheaper way to go.. :(
     
  25. Dano360NC

    Dano360NC Karting

    Aug 11, 2012
    167
    Southeastern PA
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    Dan
    If you are handy with a wrench and have 10 hours, changing intake gaskets is an inexpensive way to try and fix the problem. Gaskets are about $3 each and you should change all 8 of course. Because of the crossover intake runners, it seems a common symptom to have the misfire occur on the paired cylinders (1 and 8). If you are not comfortable with doing the work, a dealer will charge you in the neighborhood of $1,500 to do the work. I had this issue on cylinders 2 and 7. The gaskets were the problem. Runs like a champ now.
     

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