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Need Help Please F1 Problem almost caused accident

Discussion in '360/430' started by Ferrari1221, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    #1 Ferrari1221, Oct 4, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
    After driving about 20 miles on a hot day, 95f, up a mountain road, while shifting (2007 F430, 20,000 miles) seems to go into neutral, cannot shift into any gear, throttle blips when I pull paddles on F1 but no gear engagement while it coasts to a stop. First time it happened Gear Indicator said it was in 2nd, would not change with paddles. I was able to pull into turn out, thank god. Engine was still running when I pulled in, immediately shut down the car.

    It was in neutral when I pulled into turn out as I was on a hill and it coasted backwards further off the road to be safe. When I turned the ignition back on, and attempted to start, I could hear a very soft click, but starter would not turn over. Gear levers would not put car in neutral, no response or change from transmission, could not hear it shift at all.

    Thinking something needed to be reset, I turned the main power switch off under the frunk leaving it off for 40 seconds before turning on to make sure circuits clear. But No change, after putting key in ignition car still would not turn over, just a soft sound of metal lightly tapping metal sound coming from engine compartment.

    After calling tow truck, and about 25 minutes went by, I got in and the car started right up and showed Neutral on the indicator? I drove 25 miles to go home, no problems.

    Thinking it might have been a battery, as the battery was old, I replaced with a brand new battery.

    Same road, uphill through canyon, radio switches off and shows key code, then I notice gear indicator is in 4th and not moving when I blip paddle shifters, stuck in neutral again, but I have throttle response, as I see tachometer responds to pedal input, but no drive. Just a 4th gear on dash.

    This time, it leaves me in the middle of a two lane highway, guard rails on edge of road 100 feet from a turn with traffic going 60 to 70mph. I cannot back off road or do anything. Cars slamming brakes on to avoid hitting me and narrowly missing crashing.

    Same scenario, it won't start, and this time, after watching my Ferrari almost get smashed into from the rear three times, I get a tow truck to take me home. While on the flat bed of the truck, 40 minutes later, the car starts right up and I am able to back it off the truck.

    Ran diagnostic tool on the car it says P1742, P1775. P1742 out keylock -- too high, P1775 Cannot disengage gear.

    So first I think it is my F1 Pump, maybe it gets hot and cannot turn? But sounds fine, checked fuse 30amp, no sign of extra current, checked relay 50amp. I checked pump operation and hydraulic pressure in each gear, beginning at 770psi, it takes over 5 minutes for each gear to bleed down before pump activates around 600psi and quickly returns it to 770psi in 4secs, so no leaks of pressure. Pump is $2200, not cheap.

    P1742 Potentiometer (out keylock -- too high), this is on the actuator, could it get hot and prevent car from starting if it is not reading the gear it is in? Wish it was cheap to replace but I checked $700 part.

    I don't trust the car until I figure this out, as I never know when it will do it again. It would be one thing if it just stops and I can let it cool down and start it up again, but on the highway this can be very dangerous depending when it decides to go into neutral and not start.

    Anyone out there have a similar problem, please help, I am afraid if I take it to dealership they will replace all the parts and they may not fix it after a ton of money is spent. I don't know how these F1 systems work, but I am narrowing it down to

    1. Pump gets hot (unlikely), leaving too little pressure to engage a gear or take out of gear. Hence car cannot be put into neutral to start it, hence why starter does not turn over.
    2. Potentiometer gear selection position P1742, is the problem, as if it is reading incorrectly TCU does not know what gear the transmission is in (preventing starting) because it cannot affectively put it in a gear either even with hydraulic pressure
    3. Actuator getting stuck after it gets warm preventing gear from disengaging?

    Anyone have any idea?

    What I would like to know, is under what conditions will prevent engine from turning over when you press start button? Based on the error codes I got, It had trouble disengaging gear? Low Hydraulic pressure could cause this, and leave it in gear? But my pump seems fine, based on tests I ran? Can it get hot and act this way? Can clutch wear prevent the car from starting? I would think with a warn clutch it would at least start just not go into gear? And if it is the clutch why does it drive fine, never slipping otherwise? I don't know since I have never experienced my clutch slipping, I think it is just because the computer puts the car in neutral. I am suspecting the potentiometer because that would explain the error code P1742, and I figure this caused the P1775 not being able to disengage gear because it will stop if it does not know what gear it is in and put it in neutral, I assume since this is the safest choice to save transmission. In other words, it can send a signal to put car in neutral, but will not allow you to engage any gears unless it knows if it is in fact in neutral. Would a bad potentiometer prevent the start from turning over?

    Can a potentiometer get hot and not read the right range, and then it cools down and that is why the car starts as it is able to tell what gear it is in then.

    Please help
     
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  3. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    #2 Ferrari1221, Oct 4, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
    I just wanted to add a question.

    Can the "Cannot disengage gear P1775 be a symptom of the potentiometer P1742 not reading what gear the transmission is in? In other words, if the car does not know what gear it is in it will not attempt to disengage the gear? Or is that because of a stuck actuator or low pump pressure? Finally, on last thing, the solenoids on the control valves could they cause these errors.

    I almost feel like I have to put my diagnostic tool in the car and when it fails look at all the settings, but that would be a dangerous choice as I will never know where it will leave me stranded.
     
  4. APA#1

    APA#1 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,236
    Central Florida
    Check the 3 bleeder screws on the actuator, they come loose and you can get that scenario. Also you are looking in the wrong place for a pump. You can buy an Alfa pump for about $300 that is a direct replacement. You can also check Eurospares or Scuderia Parts if you need an F1 pump. Yuri also offers alternatives.
     
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  5. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
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    Apr 26, 2018
    161
    Tucson, AZ
    Agree, with APA#1 - loose actuator bleed screws are the least expensive first thing to check and a relatively common failure mechanism on F430s. Sadly it took me & our indie almost a half year and too many other false leads before we circled back to that being the problem > https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f430-f1-shifting-woes.608033/page-3#post-147060604 The symptoms were very similar, but no starting issues. The level of discomfort driving and not knowing when or where the problem would strike made me a nervous wreck.

    Depending on what threads you want to believe, there are many comments to the effect that the pumps are generally bulletproof unless you burn out the motor from too many & long cycles. I'm not suggesting pumps don't ever fail, but I've read quite a few posts from owners that have taken the approach of replacing expensive pumps without solving their F1 issues.
     
  6. Fangio5

    Fangio5 Rookie

    Mar 10, 2012
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    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Marty
    My F430 had the same issue back in May. The dealership replaced the potentiometer and F1 relay. No further issues after that.
     
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  8. magic

    magic Formula Junior
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    Nov 2, 2004
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    Hi
    No way should the pump be $2,200 that’s a rip off and it’s less than an hour to fit.
    I had similar issues on my 360 which I only got fixed after some 12 years ! It would always misbehave once it was hot and particularly in slow moving traffic. This really spoilt the fun of having such a car.
    The guys above are correct about the screws it’s a cheap thing to check so try that first. By the way I had the clutch replaced at least four times as every mechanic would say that was the issue.
    In the end it was a solenoid in the actuator. Personally I think the car has had that issue from day one. Once we swapped out the actuator c$1500 from another car I’ve never had that issue again.

    Good luck !
     
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  9. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
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    Hans
    Feels like I've read a few threads where the potentiometer causes a tirade of different odd symptoms.
     
  10. RANDY6005

    RANDY6005 Formula 3
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    Jan 9, 2017
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    Brake light going bad same thing happen to me ! 25.00 dollar part .
    Hard to believe it can disable you car, you can get some stand in the rear to see if the brake light comes wend you it brake pedal.
    Please let us what you found out.
     
  11. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    263
    Canada / Los Angeles
    Sucks hopefully you can get it sorted out. Mine would go from 2nd to neutral at times, almost got rear ended several times taking off from the lights. My Murci egear left me in the middle lane of the 405 in LA when the gearbox shifted to N and wouldn't select gear. Had that all sorted at Newport, new clutch, potentiometers, and actuator re-aligned. Then left me in an intersection for what the post above said, the brake light switch broke. I traded the 430 when it started giving me grief but hope you can get it sorted. Got to the point my wife wouldn't come along for a drive with me in the 430
     
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  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Wouldn't this indicate a power issue (or earth issue)? Does the radio and F1 system have anything in common? It does seem odd, though. As you say, it's hard to imagine something pulling so much current that it wouldn't blow a fuse.

    Unfortunately, no one seems to have any easy to use wiring diagrams for the 360.
     
  14. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    Hello everyone, appreciate all the responses, so I wanted to provide an update. The car is fixed. I feel a little bit of an expert on the subject after all the research and all the tests I did. But here is what I ended up finding out. Eventually the car began to fail so often that I couldn't drive it. And it wouldn't start either, even after some time.

    The radio would sometimes switch from my iPod input, which I had just installed back to FM while I was listening to it. It seemed to happen on corners but didn't seem to be consistent when it happened. Given that the radio completely reset one time, asking for security code, at first I assumed it was my wiring, as I installed the iPod/Blu Tooth adapter. Even after checking my wiring, could not determine anything I did was the cause, but it was the first thing I thought about as the radio began having these problems around the same time I installed it along with the transmission leaving me stranded. I went as far as 50 miles after replacing the Relay for the pump thinking that I had fixed it.

    Part of the problem is that I did not have my diagnostic tool with me when the car failed so I couldn't see what the problem was and it would often go away on its own. But the last time, it took 3 hours, couldn't get a tow as no one was willing to touch my Ferrari as all the experienced tow truck drivers were off for the night and I was told I was going to have to wait until 7am in the morning. Well, after 2.5 hours the car started up. I drove the 4 miles carefully to get home and while pulling in my garage I put the car into Neutral and the transmission would not go into gear. I turned the car off and sure enough, wouldn't even crank over.

    I hooked up my diagnostic tool and read the potentiometer values, 12, 850. It was very clear to me that 12 was way out of range. I would put the key in the ignition and immediately see the transmission error on the dash. After some time, to make a long story short, when I would turn the ignition on there was a few seconds before the transmission warning light came on, so it was slowly going away. So what was happening? I noticed when looking at the potentiometer values they would be in range and then slip back to 12 or Zero on one of them. This was in direct correlation of the warning light going on the dash for the transmission.

    Well, after some time, as it cooled in my driveway, the warning light stayed off, and as expected I verified that the values being read from the potentiometers were in range and I could start the car. I still was not convinced for sure that it was the potentiometers? What if it is a connection or short to ground between the potentiometers and the computer? But I could not reach down there as the car was all together and would have to wait until the light of day the next day to test it by taking the bottom of the car off so I could see the wires.

    Also, I knew that another possibility was the Transmission Control Unit. If it had a circuit that got warm and was showing the wrong values that could be it as well.

    Well, before taking the car apart, I decided that I would order the potentiometers, around $650.00 and just replace them. I had then planned to take the panel off of the TCU which is located behind the passenger seat and carry a can of cold spray to shoot on the TCU in the event it failed.

    After calling a parts place and talking with someone, he said they were selling a lot of Potentiometers for these cars, but no bleed screws and very few pumps if you had the newer larger pump, which I did. Also, I did run a check on the system hydraulic pressure while doing gear shifts and it seemed to be pretty consistent on every gear, in fact exceeding the time between pump runs based on what time it was expected to hold pressure, which was between 4 and 6 minutes between shifts. In other words, shift into second while the car was in my shop and wait until the pressure drops enough to trigger the pump. If it happens quickly less than 2 minutes for example, you may have an internal leak in the system.

    All gears were consistent, so I was beginning to think it was not a pump problem. After removing the exhaust, pulling off the heat shields to the actuator and pulling out the actuator I took the liberty of doing a system bleed anyways. This was done by having a friend stand by the F1 reserve tank and me triggering a Actuator bleed with my diagnostic tool. Once initiated there was no stopping it, so you needed a person to fill it up while I had a capture tank on the clutch block bleed right in front of the actuator.

    After installing the potentiometers, with the actuator not installed on the transmission I had my friend hold the actuator while I went through the gear changes with my diagnostic tool. My understanding is that the tool calls the TCU and initiates a gear change plus a byte indicating which gear it wants it to shift to.

    everything looked good and the potentiometer was within the ranges for shift and select that I expected. FYI I charted my values after doing Self-Learn procedures and compared the results to previous good times I had recorded, that is how I knew it was functioning normally.

    After putting the whole thing back together and driving nearly 1000 miles, I have had no problems. The car is shifting better than it ever has, I assume because of the F1 flush I did and re-learn procedure after installation. Furthermore, no more radio cut outs or shorts.

    Conclusion:

    If the potentiometers go bad, the car does not know what gear it is in and will not let you start it because it needs to be in neutral to turn over starter, this is why my car would not start. I also believe that because I no longer am having shorting problems with radio, that the potentiometers were causing a short to ground so bad that it was affecting the radio circuit. OK, I know that sounds crazy?? Who would put a radio circuit and transmission circuit on the same wires? Ferrari?

    So if you short your radio out you may not be able to put your transmission in gear? Ironic? But what else would explain that replacing the Potentiometers for the transmission would fix a radio glitch where the power it receives goes so low that it needs the security Key re-entered? Furthermore, sometimes it was just a quick glitch. Well, 1000 miles later and many hours of driving I finally feel the problem was fixed and was the potentiometers that fixed it.

    Ironically, shortly after I fixed this issue, I discovered a leak in the intake manifold gasket, Ferrari makes the original ones out of paper, and apparently, I have read in this forum they go bad. I have replaced the intake manifold gasket and the car purrs now. I have had the Ferrari for 4 years, I am the second owner and bought it with 9,500 miles on the clock. It has been relatively trouble free, but this year I have spent a lot of time fixing things, but that is why we love our cars, the relationship we build with them after working on them.

    I believe I am on the original clutch and I have almost 23K miles on the clock now. The intake manifold gasket was another interesting story I will be glad to share if someone is interested on how I diagnosed the problem. If you fix all vacuum leaks, these cars are amazing on how well they run. I am convinced some may have leaks and not know it based on the number of posts I have seen with people complaining about rough idles on these cars. There is a lot that can cause a rough idle, so if you are living with such a car, do some investigating.

    So I drove 1,000 miles in about a month. Why?? She was running so well after I fixed her I couldn't help myself. Seriously, I never heard the car and felt the car run so well. The shifts are crisp and fast and I find myself, when I can, sitting at stop signs just to hear the engine purr.
     
  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Veteran
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    The F1 TCU provides power for the sensors/potentiometers. The TCU is powered straight off the battery (via one of the F1 fuses) and via the ignition key (RUN).

    I find it hard to believe that some shorts in the sensor wiring would drag down the entire electrical system enough to affect the radio (but not melt the internal circuits of the TCU).

    Anyway, it's good to hear that you solved your problems ;)
     
  16. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    I find it hard to believe as well? How could a potentiometer pull that much current? The fact remains that as soon as replaced the potentiometers the problems, only with the radio, as they were click glitches, went away. I suspect that the mechanical failure of the potentiometers may have caused a short in the unit itself so the current that caused the voltage drop may have been fed by a direct short to ground on the potentiometer itself because I doubt the TCU could provide that much current without bowing out and/or melted wires. But I found none. Is it possible that it was a radio short to begin with?? Certainly, maybe just a coincidence? Certainly, maybe the radio fixed itself at the same time I replaced the potentiometers. But it failed so consistently with the bad potenitometers in the car so I cannot help but think the two things are related, though I have the same questions you have.
     
  17. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Formula Junior
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    Feb 26, 2017
    322
    So. Cal
    This is a very interesting case and well documented....the potentiometer are supplying the TCM with a gear position including neutral so it makes perfect sense the engine would not crank...the fact that this circuit has compromised the radio performance is another question.
    From a electrical lay out the feedback from the potensionmeters to the TCM should be hard wired with a connector between BUT should have huge walls to chassis ground...but as we all know this current will take will take the least path of resistance.
    As I always say let the vehicle speak it will tell you in its own way if it feels healthy and in this case it seems like it is..
    Well Done!

    Just curious where did you source the potentionmetors from and how much.?
    Thank You.
     
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  18. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    Yes, I was surprised of the possibility of a potentiometer pulling enough current to create a voltage drop to have the radio require re-entry of security code.
    So a couple of questions go through my mind.
    At what voltage drop does the radio go off line? 9 volts? 8 Volts? One of the other symptoms that would happen is the radio would glitch and go from Aux input selection which I was using to FM radio. This is another symptom of a possible voltage glitch/drop and not a permanent short.

    Given that I never actually saw the power go out when I was driving but experienced these things with the radio, which would be more sensitive to power glitches, I concluded that the radio must either be on the same circuit and/or the whole car battery system dropped, which would take a lot more current. I believe the failure was in the unit itself, hence the short and heat were generated in the potentiometer and the circuit supplying the voltage was of low amperage but may have been close to radio circuit which would explain the radio glitches. So in otherwords, the circuit that provides the power to the potentiometers is a low amperage circuit since we know this is connected to the TCU. So on this circuit is it possible for a low current draw to drop voltage? Yes, but why is the radio going off line unless it is on the same circuit. So in summary, radio tied into low amp circuit which provides voltage to TCU Potentiometer circuit. A small short would not burn up wires, but cause enough voltage drop to take radio offline and/or glitch for a fraction of a second.

    I think it is very odd that these two things could be related, wish I had a wiring diagram to trace it as I would be interested to know. Given that Ferrari does not make too many cars, it wouldn't surprise me though if some engineer tied these circuits together. Don't touch that radio button as it can affect your transmission LOL
     
  19. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    Qavion,

    The most compelling reason why I think the circuits are related is because exactly the moment the transmission stopped shifting, when I was driving, The radio, which I was listening to, stopped working and displayed the security code entry screen. During another failure, the radio did not turn off, but just switched from Aux setting to FM station. These are indications of a quick voltage drop glitch of a fraction of a second. There was at least one time when the radio glitched but the car kept driving only to fail moments later.

    But 2 of the 3 times my radio glitch occurred it was accompanied at the precise moment with a transmission that would cause the car not to start. I don't know what happened one of those times as I was not listening to the radio, but would bet that if I had been I would have seen radio go offline as well.

    So for me this is the most compelling evidence that the circuits are related. I know that the potentiometers had failed based on the readings I got from my diagnostic tools, and I also know that when they did fail the radio would die at precisely that moment.

    Surprising yes, not what I would expect. Took the cover off to the TCU and no burnt wires I could find, not even the wires on the connectors to the Potentiometers.
    I feel that it is unlikely that replacing the Potentiometers did not fix the radio glitch as since then I have not experienced a single problem and I usually had a glitch every 15 minutes or so before.

    Again, I suspect, that there was a short to ground on the potentiometers themselves. This was a short that was intermittent and was affected by the heat and expansion of materials surrounding the unit causing it to go to ground. The circuit that provides the power to the potentiometers (assuming it is the TCU), has a low current capacity so this short quickly caused a voltage drop. This voltage drop affected the radio as it was on the same circuit.

    A low current circuit would explain no melted wires when a short occurs. As too how this could affect the radio unless it was on the same circuit I do not know, but I am hoping someone else can find an explanation, it is my best so far.
     
  20. Ferrari1221

    Ferrari1221 Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    64
    Flyingbrick242, we should get together sometime, I see you are in Southern California as well. Is there a way I can send a private message to you?
     
  21. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Formula Junior
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    Feb 26, 2017
    322
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    Just sent you a PM.
     
  22. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    @Ferrari1221

    I read how you bled the actuator and just wanted to point out that when you do an actuator bleed no fluid is removed from the system .. you remove the actuator to loosen the screws so that the internal bypass is achieved. Once this is done the tool goes thru the different gears and forces the fluid back thru the return hose to reservoir. No bleed valves should be open

    The tool has another function for the clutch bleed in which you need to open the bleed screws and remove fluid


    Just wanted to point that out

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
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  23. Ray Smith

    Ray Smith Formula Junior
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    #20 Ray Smith, Jan 14, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2021
    Thanks for the tip. I was curios how you did an actuator bleed since those screws have no bleed nipples. If I understand correctly, you just remove it, make sure the screws are tight, then reinstall it and do the normal bleed at union #2 then union #1.

    Ray
     
  24. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Ray
    I think you missed the part of loosening the screws before bleed ( have to check wsm if two turns ) and before tightening back

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
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  25. Ray Smith

    Ray Smith Formula Junior
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    Obviously I did. Thanks for pulling my coat.

    So you loosen them, run a bleed cycle which just expels *air*, tighten them, *then* run the bleed at unions #2 and #1? Or will fluid flow out of the bleed screws? If so, I'll need to put a bathtub underneath because that won't be neat and tidy :)

    Thanks again.

    Ray
     
  26. Ray Smith

    Ray Smith Formula Junior
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    Disregard my last. The light bulb just when on over my head. The tool has TWO bleed functions. One is labeled "Actuator bleed". I believe that is the one that requires loosening the three bleed screws on the actuator and running the function. The *other* bleed function is for valves #1 and #2.

    Ray
     
  27. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Ray

    No fluid comes out of the screws - internal bypass back to the reservoir

    I attached a few pages from WSM to help

    Also .. when bleeding the clutch you can start with nipple up high and then go to nipple by clutch
     

    Attached Files:

  28. Ray Smith

    Ray Smith Formula Junior
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    Thank you, sir!

    BTW, that is a part of the "complete" WSM I paid for that is "being prepared" ... :)

    Ray
     
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