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Need info for superhero book

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by author, Feb 12, 2007.

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  1. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Hello, my name is James and I am an author working on a superhero series and I need some help on a particular scene and I was hoping I could impose on some of you for your advice.

    The hero is on a private jet with a top speed of probably just under mach 1. He is trying to beat another air craft with a top speed of say 1.5 mach, to a particular location. My idea was for them to climb as high as possible, say 60k feet, so they could fly faster and over take the other air craft. Then, when over their destination, the hero would jump from 60k feet since there would be no time for a regular descent. He doesn’t need a chute (he’s a super hero).

    What kind of private jet would be best?
    How much faster could a jet go at higher altitude?
    Would they have to depressurize at that altitude?
    What would that be like, would the cabin begin to burst, cold, no oxygen, etc.?
    What would it look like outside at 60k feet?
    Could the hero jump from that altitude in just regular clothes?
    Could he hold his breath until he got to a lower altitude and could breathe again?
    How much air would a small 6 inch or so canister of air afford them?
    What speed would he reach jumping from 60k feet?

    I know I’m probably way off and a lot of this sounds silly to impossible, but keep in mind it’s a story and I can embellish a small bit if necessary. Can anyone see a way to make this work?
     
  2. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    Hi James,
    I'll try to answer your questions in order. I may be joking here and there but I am not laughing at you. I have had a great imagination all my life and thought about ALL of the same things you are asking now.

    THE SKY IS NOT THE LIMIT


    I'm no expert but I know of no private jet that will do 60k feet. Have your HERO borrow a retired SR71 that he found in the corner of a darkened hanger, long forgotten but kept in good shape by the quirky janitor.

    The Valkyrie (google search) was designed to fly up to 80k feet. The higher you go the faster you can go, less wind resistance, mach 3.5 sounds like a good number to start with.

    If you wanted to open a window or hatch at anything above 20k feet you will depressurize (more or less). If you blow a hatch above 30k feet suddenly, chances are the cabin will immplode (more or less). Everybody and thing will be sucked out the hole.

    At 60k feet, ALL oxygen dissappears, the temp drops to 40 below fahrenheit immediately and everything in the cabin is sucked out the hole, (including the cabin). Basically the plane turns itself inside out while breaking up in a million pieces.

    At 60k feet I think sky is darker and you can see the curvature of the earth.

    A REAL HERO could jump from that altitude without ANY clothes.(if he wanted to show off)

    Again, a REAL HERO could hold his breath all the way down if he wanted to.

    A 6" canister could hold enough air to last him an hour if you pressurized it to 400,000 lbs per square inch (give or take).

    The falling speed he would reach would depend on if he flailed about with arms and legs outstretched or sucked them in tight and held a nose down position.

    There is a scientific formula that will give you a number called "Terminal Velocity", in other words, the fastest you (or an object) can fall for your weight, size, shape and gravity. I think for a regular human it's somewhere around 122 miles per hour ( I could be very wrong about this number).
    Being a super hero he could probably streamline himself and fall as fast as he wanted to, 300 or 400 MPH would be cool.

    When he gets closer to the ground he can change his shape into a "Lifting Body" (search Google for NASA lifting body), flare out and land on his feet.

    I hope this helps a little.

    My best advice is to read everything you can about science and aeronautics.

    SPACE, THE FINAL FRONTIER.
     
  3. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    Mar 21, 2004
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    This scene might work better factually if you scaled your numbers back by 20-30%, though it might not sound as impressive to readers.

    Supersonic aircraft are generally military. Private aircraft would not be able to exceed Mach 1 and would probably top out in the mid-40K to 50K foot altitudes.

    Here are a few more data points. Actual temperatures at 60K feet would probably be in the range of -70F. At 40K feet, time of consciousness without oxygen is 15 seconds; at 50-60K feet it is about 9-12 seconds.

    The standard value for terminal velocity is 120MPH, but that is at low altitudes where air density is high. If you start falling from much higher, the low air density would allow you to reach a higher terminal velocity, possibly supersonic according to this article. The actual velocity would depend on drag of the body, which would vary depending on clothing and deliberate attempts at streamlining.

    http://www.dropzone.com/news/AustraliantoJumpfrom1300.shtml

    Note that as the body drops in altitude, the speed advantage would disappear and go seriously negative compared to an aircraft.
     
  4. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jet aircraft will achieve their maximum true airspeed at an altitude right around the tropopause-- typically in the mid-30s. After that, going higher will generally result in a *slower* true airspeed (but lower fuel consumption).

    However, your hero could obviously save quite a bit of time by bailing out and forgoing the traditional descent and landing process!

    The fastest business jet in production now is the Cessna Citation X, with a maximum speed of Mach .92. The Global Express and Gulfstream series aircraft have maximum speeds of .86 - .88. However, none of these aircraft are very conducive for bailing out for a couple of reasons:

    1) The doors incorporate airstairs, and fold out. The slipstream would cause major damage to the aircraft.

    2) You could try going out the emergency exit, but the proximity to the engines would be bad-- your guy would get sucked right into the engine, unless of course his super powers prevented that (in which case he could probably do anything, so why bother with the airplane at all?)

    However... the Gulfstream series have a cabin-accessible baggage, with the door located under the engine pylon. I believe it's a plug-type door, so you would need to depressurize the aircraft. However, once depressurized it might be feasible to open the baggage door, and if the door were open bailing out would be entirely within the realm of (fictional) possibility.

    As for your other questions:

    what would it be like? Extremely cold, if a rapid decompression the cabin would fill with condensation (fog), oxygen would absolutely be necessary (time of useful consciousness even in the mid-30s is well under a minute), and very uncomfortable.

    What would it look like at 60k feet? Day or night? Night-- black, lots of stars. Day-- don't really know, never been above 45k feet, but I imagine the sky might be a bit darker than usual.

    Could the hero jump in regular clothes: NO. But then, he's a super hero, right? So either his super suit or some suspension of disbelief would be involved here.

    Could he hold his breath? NO. Again, though, he's a super hero-- this should not be an insurmountable problem.

    Small canister of air? Possibly. I believe the military actually uses something like this in their ejection seats to give 15 or so minutes of oxygen on the way down. However, he'd need a helmet or something in order to keep the mask on.

    What speed would he reach? I'm not sure, but I believe he'd go well past Mach 1.

    A little google searching found this website:

    http://www.batnet.com/mfwright/30Kjumps.html

    I think that answers most of your questions about high altitude jumping better than I can!

    Good luck! Sounds fun.

     
  5. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If you want to see the kinds of airplanes I'm talking about, go to www.airliners.net and search on "Gulfstream." The II, III, IV, or V all have the same baggage arrangement.

    If you look at the left side of the airplane, under the engine, you may be able to see the baggage door (if it's open in the picture you're looking at).
     
  6. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Hey Guys, thank you so much.

    Please think of my guy with one superpower only, he can land without a parachute, slow himself down so to speak. so he is just a man. And he doesnt have any sky diving skills, he’s afraid of heights :)


    Jet aircraft will achieve their maximum true airspeed at an altitude right around the tropopause-- typically in the mid-30s. After that, going higher will generally result in a *slower* true airspeed (but lower fuel consumption).
    ----------
    I really want the reader to see what its like at 60k, how diff things look. Not sure what ‘true air speed’ is, would my ground speed be faster at 60k vs 30k?


    But because of the sheer cold at 60k, my boy couldn’t jump. They would have to descend. What max altitude would you say they could descend to so that he could jump, in regular clothes, but would still have to hold his breath, and for how long do you think he would have to hold his breath?


    The fastest business jet in production now is the Cessna Citation X, with a maximum speed of Mach .92.
    -----------
    I found that too. Its perfect, apparently good wing design for faster speeds and a cargo hatch under the wing. How slow do you think they would have to go to be able to open that door without damaging the air craft? Is that a cabin-accessible baggage compartment?


    Supersonic aircraft are generally military. Private aircraft would not be able to exceed Mach 1 and would probably top out in the mid-40K to 50K foot altitudes.
    ----------
    The Citation X has a wing design that favors high speed. If in the mid 50s, could it get up to 1.5 mach or so? I know the F-14 goes 1.2 mach at sea level and twice that at 60+.


    If you wanted to open a window or hatch at anything above 20k feet you will depressurize (more or less). If you blow a hatch above 30k feet suddenly, chances are the cabin will immplode (more or less). Everybody and thing will be sucked out the hole.
    ---------
    Definitely going to wait till I get to a safe max jump elevation, then slow down to max jump speed (if you can tell me what those are I would appreciate it) and then open the door to jump. Also was planning on shutting down that left engine before he jumped, is that feasible?


    When he gets closer to the ground he can change his shape into a "Lifting Body" (search Google for NASA lifting body), flare out and land on his feet.
    ----------
    Thanks, good term. I will pop that in.


    Last area is on Radar. They are following another air craft, how far ahead can they see, how many miles?

    The aircraft they are chasing is a vertical lift jet type craft that will land on a sky scraper. At 60k feet could they see an air craft that low to the ground?

    They will have to ascend to 60k feet as fast as possible. Forgetting all FAA regulations, how fast could they go from say 20k feet to 60k feet.

    What would their max speed be and how many Gs do you think they would reach.

    Finally, would their radar be able to show any air craft above them as they climb. I wanted them to buzz an air liner by accident to show the speed and rate of climb as it rockets past the air liner cockpit.

    I know it must feel like a pop quiz in ground school, but I sure appreciate your help.
     
  7. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm pretty sure the Citation X does NOT have a cabin accessible baggage compartment.

    If you go to the link I suggested, they discuss jumps at a variety of relatively high altitudes peaking at 30,000 feet.

    As for speed, an X may or may not be able to exceed Mach 1.0. Drag goes up very quickly around Mach 1.0. However, I am reasonably sure the engines will not operate in the supersonic (above Mach 1.0) regime. The Dassault Falcon jet series will all exceed mach 1 aerodynamically, but the engines will flame out.

    Actually, I take that back-- I believe the Garrett 731 won't operate supersonicaly, but I don't know about the AEF engines on the X.

    If you want an airplane which can exceed Mach 1 and be bailed out of easily, I'd consider either a T38 (of which there are several in civilian hands) or the upcoming ATG Javelin. Neither are "business jets" in the strictest sense, but they both look cool and have ejection seats.

    And yes, in a no-wind situation, your typical maximum groundspeed would be higher at 30,000 feet than at 60,000 feet. The highest altitude *any* business jet is certified to operate at is 51,000 feet, and the only business jet I am aware of which can go there in any practical manner is the Gulfstream 550. A G-550 might be able to get to 60,000 feet under ideal conditions, but it would have to be extremely cold, very light (no fuel), and the airplane would be teetering on the edge of a stall (i.e. going very slowly).
     
  8. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Civilian aircraft don't have "radar" which can see other aircraft. Many civilian jet aircraft have something called "TCAS" which allows them to identify where other traffic is, assuming that traffic has a device called a "transponder."

    Of course, if you want to disappear from TCAS, all you need to do is flip the switch and turn the transponder off. If someone were intentionally doing something illegal or questionable, even most student pilots would realize they should turn the transponder off.

    The DEA, for example, has been known to place hidden transponders on suspect aircraft and then track them-- maybe that's something you might consider?
     
  9. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Thanks Donv,

    I scrolled right past the right link on that page you recommended. But I went back and read it, it was perfect, thanks.

    So now I have my plane flying at 30k feet, I have them going just past mach 1 to catch up to the other plane and my boy will jump from 30k. ill have to give him some luck and not give him the bends. But im putting him in a jump suit for the initial cold. And I looked up that radar you listed and learned all about that. thanks!

    Now im to the jump. Im going to assume a cabin accessible cargo area. My last question is on pressurization. Can the pilot depressurize his plane? can he depressurize just the cargo area? If not, could my boy open that cargo door if the cargo area was still pressurized? assume a speed of about 200mph.

    What is that dive called where you go head first and are all tucked in? if he did that from 30k feet, how close could he come to breaking the sound barrier?

    Thanks!
     
  10. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    I can answer one of those questions,
    Opening the cargo door at 30k feet while the cargo area is pressurized would be catastrophic. A few early DC10's met their demise in just this fashion from the faulty latching system design of the cargo doors.

    Even at 10k feet I don't think it would work as commercial aircraft are only pressurized internally to 6k/8k feet so you are dealing with a HUGE differential factor.
    Figure the square inches of the cargo door x pounds per square inch exerted against the door and you'll find an explosive result. Even a 2 psi differential is magnified on a huge scale and would destroy the aircraft.

    B17's flew well over 30k feet unpressurized (from the ground up) during WWII but all occupants were wearing electrically heated suits (that barely did the job) and all were on pressurized oxygen for breathing.

    Any depressurization at altitude would have to be done very slowly and then there is the problem of water vapor forming inside the plane during this process that may or may not cause a problem. I'll leave that to the more knowledgeable.
     
  11. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    I imagine a skydiver might have a few slang terms for it (one is "Freeflying") but if I myself had to name it, for the sake of the book, The Falcon Dive. Falcons, (birds) do the exact same thing when diving on prey and can reach speeds over 100 MPH on an extended dive. It is considered the fastest living thing on earth.

    As far as reaching the speed of sound, he would be lucky to hit 1/4 the speed of sound from the altitude you are talking about.. Remember Terminal Velocity? I think it was agreed 120 MPH was it for a human.

    Here is some info on Term V.
    Note that one man did come close to the speed of sound.

    The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the earth, in non-vacuum, is the speed at which the gravitational force is pulling it downwards and an opposing force is faced, by the resistance of air or fluid, resulting in a drag (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards. As the object keeps on downwards accelerating, the drag produced is going higher. At a particular speed, the drag force produced will be equivalent to the downward force of the object. Eventually, it plummets at a constant speed called terminal velocity. Terminal velocity varies directly with the ratio of drag to mass. More drag means slower terminal velocity. Increased mass means higher terminal velocity. An object moving downwards at greater than terminal velocity (for example because it previously used power to descend, it fell from a thinner part of the atmosphere or it changed shape) will slow until it reaches terminal velocity.

    For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver in a normal free-fall position with a closed parachute is about 195 km/h (120 mph or 54 m/s). This velocity is the asymptotic limiting value of the acceleration process, since the effective forces on the body more and more closely balance each other as it is approached. In this example, a speed of 50% of terminal velocity is reached after only about 3 seconds, while it takes 8 seconds to reach 90%, 15 seconds to reach 99% and so on.

    Higher speeds can be attained if the skydiver pulls in his limbs (see also freeflying). In this case, the terminal velocity increases to about 320 km/h (200 mph or 89 m/s), which is also the maximum speed of the Peregrine Falcon diving down on its prey.

    On August 16th, 1960 U.S. Air Force Captain Joe Kittinger came close to breaking the sound barrier during a free-fall from the high altitude balloon Excelsior III, at an altitude of 102,800 feet (approximately 20 miles), hitting a speed of 614 mph (274 m/s) as reported by National Geographic. This made Captain Kittinger the fastest human on the planet.

    An object falling will fall 9.8 meters per second faster per second (9.8 m/s/s). The reason an object reaches a terminal velocity is that the drag force resisting motion is directly proportional to the square of its speed. At low speeds the drag is much less than the gravitational force and so the object accelerates. As it speeds up the drag increases, until eventually it equals the weight. Drag also depends on the cross sectional area. This is why things with a large surface area




    Here is some info on the speed of sound,

    The speed of sound is a term used to describe the speed of sound waves passing through an elastic medium (air). The speed varies with the medium employed (for example, sound waves move faster through water than through air), as well as with the properties of the medium, especially temperature. The term is commonly used to refer specifically to the speed of sound in air. At sea level, at a temperature of 21 °C (70 °F) and under normal atmospheric conditions, the speed of sound is 344 m/s (769.5254 mph or 1238.2968 km/h).

    It gets even more complicated when you add different altitudes and humidities to the equation.
     
  12. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Thanks Spasso,

    Bummer though. I may have to take some artistic license with the cargo area and his freefall speed.

    Thanks for the terms, falcon dive sounds great, very visual.

    Well, that's it. You both have answered all my questions. When i get it published ill come back in and get your addresses, send you both a copy.

    Thanks!
     
  13. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    Sounds like a fun effort.
    Let us know how it turns out.
     
  14. SWITCHESOFF

    SWITCHESOFF Formula Junior

    Nov 9, 2005
    582
    I remember my sky diving friends calling that as " MAX DELTA ". NOPE !! My brain just kicked in and that's a term used for achieving the flatest or maximum glide slope (versus vertical free-fall). If that doesn't do it, I'll make something else up.
    Switches
     
  15. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    I just noticed in the info above that max speed on a diving Falcon is 200 MPH.
    That just impresses the hell out of me.
     
  16. SWITCHESOFF

    SWITCHESOFF Formula Junior

    Nov 9, 2005
    582
    If your impressed with the dive speed of a falcon you should put yourself in the place of a pigeon that gets hit by a falcon in an attack. Feathers eveywhere.
     
  17. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    Author,
    Do a Google search of DB Cooper. He hijacked a Boeing 727 (with 200k in ransom) back in the early 70's out of Seattle. They headed south/southeast and he eventually parachuted out the rear airstair of that plane never to be heard of again.

    The stairs dropped down out of the ventral area below the aft center engine so what you are contemplating has been done before, just not at the altitude you are trying to do it at and many speculate even then that DB Cooper died in the attempt.



    I am not sure what altitude they were at when he did it but he wore no special clothes and the plane was relatively depressurized at the time.
     
  18. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Also, a Citation X does not have a cabin accessible baggage compartment. I don't think there is any way to open the Citation baggage compartment from inside, although I could be wrong. I also don't know if it is pressurized or not. I believe it might not be pressurized.

    The Falcon 50 had a pressurized baggage compartment which we could depressurize separately from the cabin (one guy I used to fly with called the lever which shut off air to the baggage "the puppy snuffer"), but I don't know about the X.

    In the Gulfstream, the baggage is essentially a continuation of the cabin, so the entire cabin would have to be depressurized.

    Again, I'd go with the T38 or ATG Javelin. Both can exceed Mach 1 realistically, and both have ejection capability-- much more realistic than bailing out of any sort of business jet. Unless your guy wants to take a bunch of people with him?

    Then I'd consider some sort of military transport with a loading ramp, or perhaps a 727, as Spasso mentioned.
     
  19. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Thanks for all the good info guys,

    If it was a citation-esq plane, how slow could it go at 30k feet with one engine and not stall so he could jump?

    And it doesnt seem realistic there would be a way to open the cargo door from the inside. do those doors have explosive bolts or some way to open them from the cockpit? anything other than having to be outside?

    I probably wont specify the exact model of business jet, so i can mix and match to make things work. but now im not sure what to do about the cargo area. if it was pressurized and he could open the door, that would destroy the plane no matter what speed at 30k feet?

    if so, how long would it take to depressurize the jet, and then repressurize it back up?
     
  20. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    Ideally he would want the plane as slow as possible, just guessing, on one engine and half flaps at that altitude? I can't imagine a business jet flying slower than 140/150 knots. He would have to stay on the power pretty hard if he was on one engine and I don't even know if that plane could maintain that altitude on one engine anyway.

    No reason to have explosive bolts on a civilian plane. You'll just have to add an internal handle to your A/P, just like the one on the 727

    Yes

    If the passengers on the jet were already on oxygen or had face masks or both, starting from full pressure to zero without hurting the plane, (guessing again), 15 to 20 minutes down and maybe the same amount of time back up?
     
  21. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The airplane you want is the Gulfstream (G-II, G-III, G-IV, G-V), doesn't really matter which one.

    Any of them could easily maintain 30,000 feet on one engine (or at least they could drift down-- descend slowly). A Gulfstream, especially a G-III or newer, could probably do 200 knots indicated safely at that altitude, maybe 160 or so. I don't have any Gulfstream performance info handy, but if you'd like I could email a friend of mine and have an answer for you in a few days.

    The baggage door is cabin-accessible and can be opened from the inside. It's a plug-type door, so when it's open, nothing sticks out into the slipstream and so opening it should not cause any damage.

    However, since it's a plug-type door (i.e. the door is larger than the hole), you open it by pullling it into the airplane and sliding it to the side. The problem is that if you are pressurized at all, the amount of force to open it is huge.

    Figure the door is 3ft by 3ft, approximately. That's 1,296 square inches. At 1psi (pound per square inch) pressure differential, it would take 1,296 pounds to open the door. Normally, at cruise, a Gulfstream will be pressurized to 9 psi, requiring 11,664 pounds of pressure to open the door.

    If you depressurize, there is usually some residual pressure, around 1psi, in flight. Maybe your guy has a little super strength? Even if he doesn't, you could probably gloss around this issue.

    If there were a rapid decompression in flight, the correct procedure would be for the crew to put on oxygen masks and descend the aircraft as rapidly as possible to 12,000 feet or so. Those passenger masks? Basically for show.

    However, if the crew was on the ball and executed the emergency descent properly, everyone should be fine.
     
  22. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Okay, we’re getting closer,

    I think I will use a Gulfstream, it is more familiar to people as a jet than a Cessna. Its not as fast as the Citation X but its close enough.

    Decompression is out of the question, don’t have the time for it. And we cant have the cargo area not pressurized because he’d never be able to get from the pressurized cabin into the non pressurized cargo area, right?

    So that means as much as I like it, I cant use the plug door, and will need to just add a handle to the cargo door, which means I will need to gloss over the fact that if I opened that door, the cockpit would probably be yanked through it…

    But it makes for an exciting moment, and one day I hope to have it on the big screen so I may have a few pilots booing, but I can live with that :)

    How would that handle work, so I can describe it. pull out, turn and push in or what would you say?

    Is the position that he would go into after the falcon dive the Max Delta as mentioned earlier? He will need to try and glide or maneuver to land on the top of a building.

    He is jumping over a city, would visual reference could he use to determine he is at an altitude to start converting to the max delta, say 5k feet. He'd want to go as low as he could, as fast as he could before converting from the falcon dive. Distinguish between people and cars?
     
  23. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The *only* door he could use in a Gulfstream is the baggage door (which is the plug door). You'll have to just hope that people don't realize how a plug type door works.

    As for altitude, aren't there wrist-mounted altimeters for skydivers? If I were a superhero, I think I'd invest either in one of those, or a watch which does altitude-- a friend of mine used to have one.

    I'm sure the Gulfstream has some sort of cabin dump feature-- every business jet I've flown had such a switch. It won't bring the pressure all the way to zero, and it won't work immediately (takes a minute or two), but it will get you close.
     
  24. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If you'd like, I will post some questions onto a private aviation messageboard where I am a member, and I can get some specific answers from Gulfstream pilots.
     
  25. author

    author Rookie

    Feb 12, 2007
    13
    Hey Donv,

    Thanks, I think i have the pieces together. No need to post to the other forum, but i certainly appreciate the offer. I did a bit more research on the things you posted about and feel i have the scene down now.

    Thanks to everyone that helped, i will come back and post when i get 'er published.

    Take care,

    James
     

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