Need recommendations on high end audio.

If you're willing to look at the used market - you'll sure stretch that $6k a WHOLE lot farther.

I'd consider also asking your question here: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html

Or perhaps here: http://www.audiogon.com

Otherwise - I'd give some ideas if I knew what size room you're putting everything in and what your music/sound priorities are.

Heck, if you were local to me - you could have had the whole kit & kaboodle under budget & based around a pair of SoundLab electrostatic speakers... not too shabby

 

McIntosh is excellent gear with one of the best reputations in the industry. I'm not a fan myself, but that is only a matter of taste - I have no negative qualitative judgements against them at all. On a resale basis - you're never going to go wrong with used McIntosh!

Best of luck in your search & hope you'll post details as your system comes along!

 

McIntosh makes very high quality products all hand made in the USA. I have a McIntosh reciever from the mid 1970s and it still works like a dream. I would also look at products from Linn, Mark Levinson, and Bower and Wilkins if you want something that looks a bit more modern with the same high quality.

 

I will give you more later, when I have the time. But, here's my quick take. "High End" is as much a marketing euphemism as it is a description of certain products. Yes, there are high end audio products, many of which have now reached obscene price levels (eg, think 150k dollars for a turntable, comparable prices for amps and speakers, wire that can cost thousands a meter, phono cartridges that, alone, can easily exceed your budget). Am I telling you that it is necessary to spend that kind of money to achieve music reproduction of the quality that can actually make you giggle, it is so real? No. But, you have to choose components wisely, based on sound quality, and not be swayed by marketing budgets and brand name recognition. (Ain't a thing wrong with McIntosh, in fact I have several of them, one serves yeoman's duty in a large home theatre system, another is on 'permanent' loan to a friend who is, for lack of a better word, someone who doesn't always wash before dinner (the amp is bulletproof, but not necessarily the best sounding and is probably worth 2 grand because it is a bit of a 'cult' amplifier).
What would I buy if I were you? Depends, partly, on what kind of music listening you want to do.
If you are going to play loud rock and roll, I would explore some horns, and buy a very small tube amplifier to drive them. Buy this stuff used. Big dynamic type speakers are typically going to need power, and power usually costs money (or if done cheaply, won't have the spatial qualities of better amplifiers). If you are a tea and crumpet kinda listener, electrostats are phenomenal, but to get power, and bass, you have to go very big, or add woofers, with a whole other set of compromises. (And, then you have that need for power again). Martin-Logan makes some hybrids which might be worth considering. Magneplanars are lovely, and relatively cheap, but they need juice and you have to play them at almost realistic levels, if not more, to realize their beauty.
I don't listen to CD in my system, only vinyl, so I'm not going to be able to tell you too much on that front- I do know that the cheap Rega player is well regarded, and even the killer CD players get cheap after a few years because they are obsoleted so quickly.
Problem with buying used- you aren't usually working with a dealer, because most dealers don't bother with used stuff as much any more; and, even if you are working with a dealer, the person might be more interested in making a sale than guiding you; or, may simply be limited to the brands he carries or has access to through trades. (I have also found more than a few dealers to be pieces of ****, and I have bought quite a bit of serious hi-fi gear over the years, so I speak from experience).
When I have more time, I'll try and help you.

David S. Are you the Soundlabs dealer in Illinois? I think we talked on Audiogon when I was pulling together my most recent system.

 

Goodness no I'm not the dealer (that'd be Brian Walsh at Essential Audio) - I've just been a happy owner of a pair of Pristine IIs for a few years & am now working to sell them off prior to moving out of the area. Don't think we chatted about anything at Audiogon, as I haven't posted there more than once or twice. We did exchange some audio related thoughts here on another thread... though it likely consisted largely of my drooling over your vinyl rig

 

With todays electronics, the differences between amplifiers etc aren't that big compared to the differences between speakers. Speakers are still a product where the equation "better = more expensive" is true as long as the price doesn't get ridiculous. Plan 80% of your budget for speakers and 20% for electronics. I agree with whart - start looking into horns! Amazing sound, don't need much power. I have two self-built horns here in my room and wouldn't want any other speaker principle.

btw, don't buy anything from Bose! Big marketing bubble!!

 

I am absloutly in love with my Bowers and Wilkens (B+W) speakers I have a pair of the Nautilus 802Ds and I cannot say enough about them amazing sound quality and projection...as for an amp I am currently running a Marantz SR-18 as the amplifier to go with it (this is in a home theater room) other speakers are all B+W units as well.

Also for a nice music server check out the Harmon/Kardon DMC1000 not as high end as the olive or others but definately more affordable as well and it still has a good DAC.

as for some interesting deals on good amps check out the hk AVR745 as well...it is a fantastic amplifier and is getting discontinued for the 08 model year so there should be some bargins to be had on them

 

I highly recommend Bowers & Wilkins.

I have a pair of 805S with Rotel amplifiers and preamp.

My music (only lossless and studio master quality) is played on a Mac mini which feeds the preamp through a PS Audio DAC. I use the TV as the Mac's screen. Front Row and the little Apple remote are great for this. I have another Mac as a server with several hard drives in the basement which holds all the music to keep all the hard drive noise out of my listening room.

 

if you want to impress with terminology, then find some average pre-poweramp combo to fit you budget....
if its really sonic quality you are looking for go for a high quality integrated amp as in your rather tight budget you will be paying for only one chassis with better internals versus 2 chassis with lesser quality internals.

i would highly recommend a Pass Labs INT-150 amp. as for speakers go with JmLAB Electras 1007Be or 1027Be. speaker cables and interconnects i would highly recommend Audience. i would not go with harddisk based solutions as they do not qualify beyond mid-fi.

i am not really familiar with low cost front-ends so will leave this for you to research.

alternatively i would recommend you assemble a setup from stereophile's A+B class components to fit your budget.

i have extensive experience with above manufacturers as i own 2 main systems comprising of the following:


dCS 8 Pi SACD Player
Halcro dm 78 mono power amps
JmLab Nova Utopia Speakers
Audience Au24 Speaker Cables and interconnects


Sonic Frontiers Transport 3 and Processor 3 Front End
Pass Labs X0.2 3 chassis pre-amp
Pass Labs X1.2 Power mono's
Von Schweikert Research VR-8 Speakers (alternating with Wilson Audio Witt's)
Transparent Audio Interconnects and speaker cables

 

horns are the mother of distortion.

 

That's not the case anymore as long as you follow a few considerations.
1. Keep the hard drives away from your listening room. Stream your data over the network to eliminate noise.
2. Use only lossless file formats. Apple Lossless (ALAC) is a good one.
3. You absolutely need to purchase a quality external DAC. An internal sound card just won't cut it. The PS Audio DL-III is superb, it will set you back about $1K. http://www.psaudio.com/products/digital_link_iii.asp

I have done blind listening tests and I can't tell the difference between the music coming from the Mac and the music coming from the CD transport. They're ones and zeroes, and as long as they're lossless there's isn't much room for error either way. The DAC is what truly makes the difference.

The convenience of having thousands of albums in lossless quality perfectly organized and always available on menus in the TV is priceless.

 

i have to insist that your input is far from the truth. all mp3 formats are compressed. even apples aac.
even the best dac can only convert or upsample what it is fed. so for true reproduction stay away from any compressed formats. hook up any of those components to a true high-end system and it will be like driving an F430 with 90 RON octane. there might be no knock but you wont get to truly enjoy what the car is capable of due to retarded timing.

surely it is convenient to have all albums on a single component....butr then again it's part of the experience to change cd's or lp's....


there are many dacs for ipod hookup available. krell for example produces the kid. but it's a fashion gadget and true high-end manufacturers will never produce that kind of gadget.

 

NAD makes nice products but if you are going to spend that much money look at the other brands that I have listed in my previous post. Marantz makes some nice products but stay away from the lower end because you are really just paying for the name. As for loud speakers I have the Bowers and Wilkins 800 series and they are amazing. The music sounds live not distant like it does in most speakers. Also if you want to go used. Look into some Klipschorns speakers they are really old but awesome sounding.

 

That's a fine foundation to build on, but even in the used market that one piece isn't easily available for under $5k (since it has only been on the market for a few months).

With a total budget ceiling of $6k, the original poster will have a hard time fleshing out his system if he starts with an INT-150...

 

You're correct. MP3 and AAC are crap. Compressed formats are crap. You should avoid them at all costs.

ALAC and FLAC are completely different beasts - they're lossless. If you strictly work with lossless formats the DAC will be fed exactly the same information that it would receive from the CD transport, no more and no less, and there will be no need to upsample. The downside is that lossless files take up huge amounts of hard drive space precisely because they're uncompressed, but hard drives are cheap these days.

 

I think this thread reflects people's differing understandings of what constitutes a "high-end" system. To me, it is not defined exclusively by the amount of money spent because there can be superb lower cost systems and complete abominations that cost a fortune. The OP asked about trying to get a 'high-end' 2 channel system for @ 6k dollars, which is an extremely tight budget, but it probably can be done with a combination of used equipment, and some compromises. (All of us who have spent any time and money on this hobby know that there are always compromises, and that the closer you come to approximating something that can make real music in some respects, the easier it is to tell where the system 'falls down' and fails to create that illusion).
I am intrigued by InTouch's comment regarding horn distortion. My listening experience is the opposite, admittedly based on subjective, rather than measured, results: I started listening to electrostats in the early 70's ( a pair of the original Quad ESL's- a/k/a '57's, which I still own). These speakers, for those unfamiliar with them, cannot play loud, are fairly limited in their dispersion characteristics, i.e., off axis, you loose the high frequencies very quickly) and have no deep bass. But, within those limitations, they are a perch within the performing venue, rather than a portal in the wall of the venue through which you strain to listen- they are lucid, alive, and utterly unmechanical in their reproducing characteristics. With high quality tube amplification, and a superb front end, they remain, more than forty years after their introduction, as perhaps the best midrange transducer in the business.
Over the years, I have tried many things to work around their limitations- the addition of supertweeters and subwoofers, active cross-overs, etc. None of that was very effective (although a crude rear channel 'delay line' system was an amazing way to augment the system and did not detract from its purity in the same way that adding woofers and crossovers did). I then went to Crosby-modded 63's, which I also still have- a more modern Quad electrostat, with higher power handling, deeper bass, and better dispersion characteristics, improved by some elaborate modifications done in the 80's by a well-known hi-fi 'mafia.' The speaker was not as pure as the original Quad, but could play louder, and deeper.
I have been through many, many systems over the years, coming back always to the electrostats despite their limitations. A couple years ago, I decided to try a different approach, based on horns and even lower powered tube amps. The result is what I was striving for: huge dynamics, crystalline clarity (with the risk of harshness if all is not sorted in the chain leading up to the speaker system) and a level of openess and detail that easily rivals the electrostats. Part of this comes from using no X-over on the midrange horn. The discontinuity that exists between the horns and the woofer is something that I have to live with, but unless I could use a full range horn woofer system and provide uncompressed, unlimited source material, I will never reproduce kickdrum with the same dynamic explosion I can at higher frequency ranges.
In all events, I am a firm believer in champagne quality at beer budgets, and am glad to see others with equal interest in audio contributing to this thread.

 

very very few horns sound 'right'. most of the horn applications have a very bloated top-end. i too have a pair of ESL 63 's and loved them for years. but the newer driver and cone materials in speakers have leaped forward in the past years and you will find that most truly respected high-end speaker mnanufacturers steer clear of electrostats or horns. the new beryllium tweeters sound magnificient and extend to ranges unheard of a couple of years ago.

there are many excellent bargain components in high-end audio and 6-10k can get you a truly good system.

to truly make the right choice and be able to better guide you, the most determining factor is the type of music one listens to. only the very top sytems play everything to the same quality...

 

OK, In Touch, you've got an invite to NY to hear my horn system at your convenience.

 

You're not accounting for a digital to analog converter and the bits aren't going to convert themselves. Chances are the CD players will come with internal DACs but it's always better to choose your own and use them solely as a transport.

I'd substitute the tuner for an external DAC. It's a lot more important. You can use that DAC with a computer and with the single disc CD transport. About $700 should get you a good CD transport to match a $1K DAC. If you do get a USB DAC keep in mind that it is better to connect it via optical cable, that way you can do 24/96 audio and you can listen to studio masters from Linn Records. That's higher quality you can get from a computer that you couldn't possibly get out of a red book CD. http://www.linnrecords.com/

I purchased the CD player first, then the DAC, and the Mac mini last. I ended up using the Mac mini + DAC. I don't use the CD player anymore. I should have purchased the DAC and the Mac first and I would have never purchased the CD player. I also bought a tuner and I thought I was going to use it but in reality I never do.

You'll also need something to filter the power.