Need suggestions please --- I am "screwed" | FerrariChat

Need suggestions please --- I am "screwed"

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by finnerty, Apr 20, 2013.

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  1. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

    May 18, 2004
    10,406
    #1 finnerty, Apr 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ....and, I need to get un-screwed....

    I've removed probably a few hundred spark plugs over the years, but I have NEVER had this happen before. While attempting to loosen one of the plugs (Mitsubishi Galant, btw), the plug itself broke (at the spun joint) between the upper body (includes the hex-head portion) and the lower body (includes the threaded portion) outer sections. I had applied very little torque at this point, so the plug body must have been weak / damaged already.

    Anyway, the upper body portion and the core / electrode came out, but what I am now left with is the lower body portion still screwed into the cylinder head. I have attached these two pics for reference ---- the portion in each pic that I have bracketed / highlighted in green is the only piece that is left behind in the head --- it is hollow as the entire core broke free and came out.

    The cylinder head on this car is aluminum. Anyone have any ideas on how I should attempt to remove it ??? I was thinking about trying a large diameter easy-out extractor into the internal bore, but it is extremely awkward as the plug well is about 6-inches deep and only about 1-inch in diameter ---- and my easy-out is only about 3-inches long, so it will be very tough to "fiddle" it down there, get it inserted squarely, get it to grab properly, and then get a socket onto it.

    I am very much hoping some of you have better ideas and tool recommendations that I could try ---- thanks :)
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  2. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    My first thought is get a cheap wide-blade, long shaft straight-slot screwdriver... sharpen the side edges with a file or grinder & hammer on down until you have a slot in the upper part of the remainder of the plug metal, soak in WD-40 overnight, then see if you can extract it using a pair of Channellocks around the handle of the screwdriver. Should leave no metal shavings, but you can always flush if that's a risk.

    Do you have sufficient access for something like that?
     
  3. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #3 2NA, Apr 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Never seen a plug break like that. Fortunately you got the ceramic part out.

    I would start by cutting one of the other plugs apart so you can plan the best approach. You might need to fabricate a tool. There are a few different types of extractors. I prefer the straight type over the screw type. As the Dawg mentioned, you might easily make something similar out of a screwdriver or long chisel. Tap it in GENTLY to get it started.

    If the other plugs came out easily, it might be simple.
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  4. Splitting Atoms

    Splitting Atoms Formula 3

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    #4 Splitting Atoms, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It sounds like access will be difficult. If you drill the plug for an easy-out, there are two bad things that can happen that I can think of. The first is that you drill too deep and you get material from the plug in the combustion chamber. The second is that the drill bit gets into the threads in the head which would be an expensive fix.

    There are some sockets made for extracting broken bolts that you might try. I have a set that I have used with limited success. I think they are the Kobalt brand from Lowes. I saw them one day and they were an impulse buy. If that doesn't work, I would pull the head. It will be a pain in the butt, but it may be quicker and less expensive in the long run.

    I see that Sears sells a Hanson brand:
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  5. 348Jeff

    348Jeff Formula 3

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    #5 348Jeff, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I very foolishly overtightened a brand new plug which snapped in the head - to say I felt sick at the thought of wrecking my Ferrari after only owning it a week or 2 is an understatement.

    However, fear not - with a bit of ingunity it was out very easily - hardest part is getting the thread extractor to stay attached to the socket extensions etc so I used some tape to hold everything together. Heres a pic just after removal. Boy was I relieved!!!! :)
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  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The same thing happened to me a couple of years ago on a Honda block. The pug was way too deep in the spark plug hole to get an easy out in it, and the only other way was to pull the head to get at it from the combustion chamber. After pulling the head and taking it to a head shop, THEY couldn't even get it out. The machine shop had to sent it to a place that burned it out. How in the heck they do that is beyond me????? To get it burned out was only like $50-ish bucks. The enigne needed rebuilding anyway, over 300k on the odometer, so after head head came back from getting the plug burned out, I had them rework the head. Total cost was $350-$375 bucks, that included burning out the plug, the valve job, cleaning up the ports, and decking the head.
     
  7. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Look up EDM
     
  8. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    AH HA!

    Looked up EDM, Electrical Discharge Machining and watched a video about it on YouTube. And now I know how they did it.

    Thanks for the heads up Tim.
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 Steve Magnusson, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
    Well done, but, if the OP's sketch is accurate, he/she might have a much tougher problem to solve because the shoulder on the remnant piece may still be tight against the head (whereas the seating shoulder portion was completely lost from your remnant piece -- so you only had thread friction to overcome to remove it).

    OP -- Can you confirm that the break in your case occurred exactly in the location per your sketch -- i.e., the hex portion is lost, but cylindrical section below it is still present?
     
  10. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #10 finnerty, Apr 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Affirmative --- the piece that remains does still have the shoulder on it --- so, as you suggest, it is seated against the head tightly with the sealing washer in between. It is not just the threaded portion only as Jeff had.

    The separation occurred at this joint (red arrow)....
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  11. deeprivergarage

    deeprivergarage Formula Junior
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    Most of my stuck threads, bearings, bolts, or other parts problems have been solved with the right amount of heat (especially, if a torch is accessible) and a good quality tool.

    It is generally not the time to use a cheap tool or extractor.

    I also think the easy-out is the most appropriate tool for the first try.

    I might also try an impact wrench on the easy-out, after the easy-out is firmly attached to the broken plug.

    Good luck,

    DRG
    Jerry
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for clarifying that, and I really have no good suggestion beyond what the others have already suggested:

    Plan A - try the internal Easy-Out (but it may not have enough "bite" strength into the remnant to support applying enough torque to remove it).

    Plan B - external Easy-Out (if if fits -- may not, and might need some tweaking, as these are usually designed to fit rounded-over hex nuts). Will be able to apply more torque as the "bite" is applied at a larger radius and may have more biting flutes.

    Plan C - remove head :(

    If nothing is damaged, Plan A has hope; however, if the threads are all mangled/galled-up you wind up doing Plan C and EDM -- Good Hunting!
     
  13. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
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    Man I feel for you. Don't lose hope. Do you think corrosion is involved. This will play against you if electrolosis is starting to corrode it all together. My favorite extractor which has saved me in desparate times is the spline type.

    348Jeff has shown exactly what you need. Hopefully you'll be posting happy news.

    What brand plug was that?
     
  14. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

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    Finnerty,

    Any chance you can borrow a bore scope from someone? You might want to take a look down there and confirm what's actually left in the hole. From the sound of it, Steve's Plan A might well work, with the easy-out. Like the example photo. But once you've got it out, you also might want to take a peak into the cylinder just to confirm that nothing fell in that might cause a problem later. The last thing you want is to get the broken plug out, put a new plug in, start the engine, and wham-o, have an even more serious problem from a broken part down there. If you bore scope it and it's clean, you're good to go.

    Just a thought.
     
  15. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #15 finnerty, Apr 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    A big THANK YOU to everyone for their suggestions and advice.

    I ended up going with a similar approach as Jeff used. Mainly because I could make use of tools I already have on hand.

    And, I am happy to report ---- it worked quite well !!!

    JEFF --- I can’t offer to buy you a beer because you are a few thousand miles (and a big ocean) away from me. But, when I go out to dinner later this evening, I will hoist a pint of Guinness and make a toast to you !!!

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  16. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #16 finnerty, Apr 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Autolite ---- Needless to say that after this experience, I cannot recommend that brand. :p

    However, it does apparently come in a fancy 3-piece version -- LOL
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  17. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    And, it is a darn good thought, too :). I actually have my own scope, and I thoroughly snooped in the cylinder after I got the piece out ---- was very pleased to find it clean, got lucky that no fragments broke free and dropped down in.
     
  18. deeprivergarage

    deeprivergarage Formula Junior
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    That is terrific. Nice work!

    DRG
    Jerry
     
  19. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 World Champ
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    LESSON:
    Most people overtighten EVERYTHING, but spark plugs need only 1/4 turn to crimp the washer after a snug finger tightness is reached.

    ONE QUARTER TURN!

    Here endeth the lesson
     
  20. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Ford 5.4 triton v8 is terrable for this. So much so I refuse to do tune-ups on them. The it's break exactly like yours every time. So much so kd tools made an extractor kit just for these engines. I bought it, used it once, and never let another ford f150 tune-up in the shop. Problem solved.
     
  21. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

    May 18, 2004
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    Very, very true indeed.

    In this case, it was a pre-mature failure of the spark plug itself (which is why I will never buy an Autolite plug after this ;)). It simply had a weak / defective swagged joint --- probably from day one when it left the manufacturer.

    It took very little torque for it to break when I first attempted to remove it. And, when I did get the other, broken-off piece loose, it only took a reasonable amount of torque that one would typically expect to remove any spark plug --- it was not overly tightened or corroded / seized.

    This was just a case of it being a crap part, right out of the box.
     
  22. mikeyr

    mikeyr Formula 3

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    Or the proper torque ! 1/4 turn is good enough if you don't have a torque wrench
     
  23. 348Jeff

    348Jeff Formula 3

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    Hi David I'm so pleased it worked for you!

    We will have to patent this tool and give it a Ferrari part number then we can sell it on ebay for a rediculous amount of money! LOL

    I'll have to ask Ernie if I'm allowed junior stooge rank :)

    BTW When you fit spark plugs adda smidge of copperslip to help prevent corrosion/problems with removal (its even in the manual to grease them slightly before anyone tells me off!)
     
  24. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

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    Glad to hear you got the plug out and no damage to the cylinder. While you were down there with the scope, did you by chance check the thread in the plug hole to be sure that the prior plug had not been cross-threaded? If you can't turn the new plug into the hole by hand with just a little pressure, pull out the scope and double-check it. I use a length of fuel hose that fits tight over the plug to insert them and turn them in. With a little engine oil or anti-sieze on the threads, you should be able to turn them in all the way to the shoulder.

    IMHO, Autolite = crap. I've used NGKs in all my cars for a long time, and have never had a problem with them. I used to use Champions in my old Jaguar XKEs, but I now use NGKs in the E as well. YMMV, but I like to stick with what works.
     
  25. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

    May 18, 2004
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    Threads in the head were fine. I put some anti-seize on the threads of the new plug before installing, and it screwed in like butter just as it should. The new plugs I put in were "Champions" :).

    I use NGK plugs on all my own cars --- especially the "nicer" cars.

    But, this was my buddy's car, and it was his daily driver Mitsubishi ---- he did not perceive the need for $7 / plug NGKs, so I suggested he go with Champion at about $3 / plug. (the existing Autolite plugs were put in by the previous owner)

    This all started because his car was running like ****, and he had taken it into 2 shops --- the local Mitsu dealer & an independent --- for diagnosis and estimates. The Mitsu dealer told him he needed new cam belts and a new alternator --- cost = $900. The independent told him he needed a new catalytic convertor --- cost = $500.

    I offered to do him a favor and give him my "third opinion". It took me about 10 minutes to determine that the REAL problem was bad spark plugs & bad ignition wires. Total cost to him for the parts was $60, and I did the work for him for free of course :) Had the plug not broken, I would have only been donating 1 hour or so of my time, but that ended being closer to 3 hours with the plug fiasco :).

    Either way, I was happy to help him out. The car is running perfectly, my buddy is grateful as hell, and I have a "favor" coming back to me later ;) win / win !!
     

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