Need to learn to drive

My words were "Owns an F40, Dino, 360,"
Not, "Doubts he Owns an F40, Dino, 360,"

So you are Threatening Me!

 

OK so I pointed you out as a Troll, which was confirmed...
and now I must put up with you
private messaging me about how lame I am and so on?
I don't think so.
Can we get this troll removed?

 

For the record, I am just above 1600 laps, and still about 2 seconds off the pace my car will run. This has something to do with not wanting to put a $100K car in serious jepordy.

I have developed a serious liking to the wide line through T1/2 at TWS, but I begin right at the pit wall (easing the egress off the banking) and lightly trail braking through 1 to arrive at T2 at just the right speed. The right amount of trail braking in a F355 is tricky, but get it right, and you save like 2 whole seconds compared to the brake hard and toss into T2, and end up having the rear of the car in better position than the inside line.

Sorry about the backwards exit at T2.

 

Sorry to take this thread off-topic, but since it was started by a troll ....

Rob and Mitch -

Each of you have experience at MSR. I am a member there but have only taken my 911 and Boxster S out so far. I bought my F355 about 6 weeks ago and do plan on tracking it a few times a year, but will save most of my laps for the 911. Have any advice on driving an F355 on this track? Specifically, driving around town I don't have a feel yet for how the gearing will translate to shift points at MSR. Here is a lap in my 911:

2nd gear through Rattlesnake, shifting to 3rd at the end of the uphill left before Ricochet
Shift to 4th during the straight after Ricochet, back to 3rd before Lil Bend
Shift to 2nd before the tight uphill left (forgot the name)
Back to 3rd at the start of the 'double apex' left
Shifting to 4th on the back straight, back to 3rd before Big Bend
Shift to 4th on the straight after Big Bend then hard on the brakes before Rattlesnake ....

What does this look like in a F355? Anything strange about the line in this car? What kind of lap times do you see here?

Thanks.

 

Last week two buddies and I attended the Porsche Driving Experience and it was a complete and total blast.
The Track:
Barber Motorsports has the most incredibly well done race track I have ever seen. The man who put it together, Mr. Barber, owns or did own Barber’s Dairy which you see all over the South. He has produced a no-expenses spared gem. The track is brand new and has been re-paved twice. It is now perfect. It is 2.3 miles of undulating perfect blacktop with 16 turns and over an 80 foot elevation change. A former LeMans winning PDE instructor said that he has been to race tracks all over the world and that this is the nicest. The surface is so good that even though we were doing hot laps in the driving rain the traction in the turns did not change very much at all.
The Course Basics: The course is devoted to high speed driving. Most of the time you are in groups of 3 911s on the race track behind an instructor. There are some initial high speed lane change/braking exercises, designed to familiarize you with the cars and also to adjust group assignments of students of different skill levels. There is also a wet skid pad section, an autocross and an oval for shifting exercises.
The Cars: Each student is assigned a brand new 2004 Porsche 911 6 speed with Sport Suspension and exhaust (regular production options) and Michelin Pilot Sport Tires. They are perfect for the task. They were very fast, handle great and are stable under braking. We routinely drifted/slid through the hairpin, museum complex series and final turns and except for a few agricultural excursions by other students the cars were absolutely perfect. Students use a different 911 for heel/toe exercises on an oval, a tiptronic 911 on the Skid Pad , and a Cayenne and Boxster S in the Autocross.
The Instructors:
You can’t ask for any better instructors. There were 2 former LeMans winners, Daytona, Sebring winners, etc. These guys are the Real Pros and when they tell you something can’t be done they Know. Doc Bundy was our head guy. He’s raced Porsche 962s, worked with peter Gregg at Brumos and Al Holbert and won national championships and Le Mans in a Porsche. Chip Robinson won Le Mans for Jaguar in 1987 (Doc was on that team too). The other instructors were similarly qualified: 2 or three of them are currently racing Daytona Prototypes. These are some serious guys. Most have been racing long enough to really understand it and really want to help you. More importantly, they really know how to explain it. My first Pro Race was at Daytona and I asked my sponsor (he had thirty years racing experience at that point) how to take the first turn. He took me down to the edge of the track, thought deeply and said “you go about up to there (pointing) and then you turn left.” These guys, instead really know how to explain where you brake, where to turn in and WHY. They have radios installed in the cars and you here things like “see when you did that early apex how much it slowed you down for the second part of the turn?” This was the best part of the course.

At the end of the second day, the instructors take you for Hotlaps. First you go out in the Cayenne. You can’t believe how fast you can make 6000 pounds go, turn and brake. Then you go out in the 911s. I maneuvered it to get Chip Robinson as a driver and it was just unbelievable how much faster he was than we were, even in unlikely places. His speed came principally from compressing and compartmentalizing all the little tasks, performing them perfectly and moving on. For instance at the turn by the pits, he actually straightens the wheel and heads uphill away from the turn so he can brake harder! At the Museum complex he really doesn’t brake at the end of the straight, just flicks it onto the right turn apex, drifts over to the curbing going down hill and the brakes, downshifts and turns in on the downhill! I was very humble at the end of that ride.

 

That's it! Dave and Busters! (roll eyes).

 

I too would like to take my F355 on the track. Is there anywhere in NJ that offers this type of basic instruction? I would prefer to have the track pretty much to myself if possible.

Ben

 

2nd gear through rattlesnake. You can short shift to 3rd before or after the off camber end to rattlesnake. I had a spin the the F355 at the crest by putting down too much power. The short shift aleviates this concern at a very minor consession to lap time. I take a lazy shift to 4th in order to arrive at ricochet at just the right speed and avoid breathing the engine or touching the brakes.
Up through 4th and down to 3rd in little bend. Little bend is slick and wants a tidy line for good speed comming out.
I leave it in 3rd through wagon wheel and rev out at track out going onto the straight leading to big bend.
I leave it in 4th for big ben and touch 5th on the front straight before going directly to 2rd into rattlesnake.

In both cases, leaving the F355 in a higher gear is trading off some acceleration for a lot less work in the cockpit and in general leaves little time on the table.

2nd gear in rattlesnake is required to get the car back up to speed after the pinch, but between the pinch and the subsequent crest 2nd or 3rd can be used as little acceleration is required or possible.

Between little bend and the subsequent right, I leave it in 3rd and ride the revs somewhat beyond redline to avoid an upshift and a subsequent downshift.

The car will be telling you to pich and run through big bend; I prefer a little sideways acceleration through big bend that ends up with more straight line speed at the braking point; plenty of road to work with and spectrum trackout points.

 

Thanks Rob! Dave & Busters. LOL!

Test this, buddy!

 

Note: Randy Aust IS my long term driving coach.

 

That was how I felt arriving at my first high performance drivers education event. I had read 8 different books on high performance driving (memorized might be closer to the truth than read or studied), I had practiced on back roads for 25 years, I healed and toed every down shift for 25 years (never owned an automatic transmission), I concentrated on smoothness for 25 years (both steering and control inputs), I went out in icy weather to develop skills in sliding cars around under control, and I was tops in my Novice class that first day. But 1600 laps later, I now understand how foolish my own original self assessment was.

Did you buy the thing to drive it, or to recoupe your investment some number of years from now? Me, I put 20K miles on the car in 2 years of which 4K+ were at the track.

 

Thanks for the advice guys! You confirmed my suspicions that I would use the higher gears more often than I do now.

I also learned a few things to try no matter what car I am driving. In particular, shifting into 3rd after the first right hander (the pinch) in Rattlesnake. With my 911 I run out of 2nd gear as I head up the hill (Wagonwheel) and find myself holding the throttle waiting to straighten out to hit third as I approach Ricochet. Making the shift in Rattlesnake shouldn't cost me too much there and may allow me to make it up through Ricochet. Driving the 911 I do tap the brakes before Ricochet to settle the car. With the mid-engined Boxster S I do not.

All of you hold fourth through Big Bend as well, as my long term instructor (Jay Lopez) does also. I usually shift to third on entry and shift to 4th right at track out. This results in a slow entry but fast exit speeds. I am more comfortable doing this now, but as I get better I expect to hold fourth as all of you do.

You guys are all a lot faster than me so my results may very a bit. To use Mitch's scale, I am currently 5-8 seconds off of my car's capability. Before taking an extended break (which I hope will end next weekend) I was running a 1:34 in the 911 (Euro 3.2 liter) and Jay has run a 1:29 in it. He usually drives a Viper so with a little more seat time in the rear-engined 911 he would have picked up a few more seconds. I have another instructor friend who drives a 993 who I want to clock in the car so I can confirm the car's personal best.

By the way, I have been Beta testing some software that will allow in-car video feeds to be synched up with dash board analysis from a data logger like a DL-90. The output is just like SPEED channel with a computer generated dashboard superimposed on the video feed. It is almost ready for release and I have convinced the creater to come to MSR for a 'launch party'. It's a great training tool, I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again. I look forward to driving there with you guys. Will the Poker Run be making a stop there? That may be the F-cars first track day if it is.

 

Okay here is my opinion on learning to drive properly.

It is a complete waste of time learning how to drive properly in a fast car, in the end the car is too intimidating and too fast and thus you do not learn how to get the best out of the car.

Remember Schumacher did not learn to drive as well as he does by jumping straight into a F1 car, or even a fast car, he started in a go kart.

Now I am not saying you need to buy a go kart, but if you are going to do track days to learn how to drive, LEAVE the Ferrari at home and take a normal unpowerful RWD car FIRST and learn how to make that cars chassis work. When you have mastered that move up to the faster and more powerful cars.

Before you flame this post, I will justify my comments below:

1. A normal road car is designed as a huge compromise and thus usually has more forgiving handling characteristics ... this usually also sacrifices grip. This is the perfect way to learn about car dynamics as you will FEEL the cars chassis, etc. at safe and slow speeds and also it all happens slower so you can understand what is happening.

2. A Ferrari or a performance car, has been designed for maximum grip, etc. and thus they are harder to drive and NOT a good car to learn the art of car dynamics in. You have to understand this process FIRST and then jump in the Ferrari and advance your learning.

No matter how many track days, etc. you do you will never learn as much if you do NOT start with the basics and give your brain and coordination a chance to mature by starting off slow. Just like learning any new skill.

I started racing in a standard MGB. At the time I would loved to have more power, but I realise looking back that that first year of classic car racing taught me how to make what I had work the absolute best and I ended up embarrassing some much more powerful cars with that little MGB (like v12 E-types, and FIAT 131Rs, etc.).

Then I moved up to faster and faster cars ...

Pete

 

Even though this thread was started by a troll and everything, I thought it was very informative. It gave me a better idea of what kind of time I need to put in to really get everything out of whatever car I'm in. I'm sure it doesn't just apply to Ferraris. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't a total waste of bandwidth.