Need to learn to drive

I am going to take issue with a very subtle problem with that sentence fragment above.

I find the C5 Vette has a suspension designed for more traction than the F355 Ferrari. Indeed, the Ferrari suspension gives traction away in very controlled and calculated way (see my diatribe about F355 suspension geometry), whereas the Vette generates more absolute grip and in a more linear manner.

I like to describe this as:

The Vette goes grip, grip, grip, snap spin
while
The F355 goes grip, slip, slide, slide with sound effects

The careful controlled loss of traction enhances the feel and feedback so the driver can sense and predict a correction and avoid a bigger problem. So the C5 generates 1.0 Gs of cornering on a skid pan, while the F355 generates more like 0.95 Gs. It is my belief that this was a deliberate design decision at Ferrari in the suspension department. Later, when power is applied, the traction comes back and the F355 has been measured near 1.15 laterat Gs accelerating out of corners. (Something that cannot be measured on a skid pad--unfortunately).

So, in effect, the F355 was not designed for maximum grip, but for the best balance between grip and feel.

 

Wow, Mitch. Your post really hit home. I'm the same way with heel-toeing every downshift. Double clutching, etc... for 20+ years. But I've never been on a track.

I would love to learn to drive at a racing school, but am afraid that I would beat my Mondial to a pulp. Any advice for a mid-performance Ferrari-owning novice?

Maybe I should just spend the money and go to a Porsche driving experience somewhere...

 

All of your advice is great all 'round for fun driving on track. Extracting that last bit of speed is another thing altogether and a bad idea unless you are willing to have some kind of incident (generally an off).

Don't get me wrong, I have an off in my track & race cars with great enthusiasm from time to time, but it can be $$$$ in an exotic, so I try to ratchet back a notch and not worry about that last second in a nice street spoorts car.

Not even the mighty Schumi extracts 100% of his car without the occasional off and you are kidding yourself if you think you are doing all the car will do consistently with no mishaps (heck, the track surface can change due to fluids from another car).

So be true to you and don't try to inch up to the 100% line without you eyes and wallet open to the downside.

And never figure you are fast - the attitude alone will jinx you and you will come across someone faster sooner than you think! I recenlty got my butt kicked by a f'in novice!

 

Mitch, Mitch, Mitch,

You know what I was trying to say ... I was comparing a Ferrari to a sedan, not a Vette.

Compared to the very slow breakaway nature of most sedans (that I have driven, with a few nasty exceptions) a Ferrari breakaway will seem real fast!

Anyway you are technically correct, but I do wonder if your Vettes sudden let go is more a condition of the tyres than superior suspension design over the Ferrari. Pirelli tyres (used to) have a reputation for hanging on until the very end and then letting go very, very suddenly, for example.

Also I would hope that the Ferrari would be designed for forward traction, and you control sideways grip via the throttle (?). Most performance cars or race cars will sacrifise almost anything for forward traction ... and let the driver work out the rest

Pete

 

Mitch, Keith, David, et al, great posts... this is a great thread!

Reminder: Trolling = posting messages that you know will sidetrack/destroy a thread

In this thread, the trolling *accusations* are doing more damage than anything. Let's please just stop those... the necessary ID has been made... let's not destroy this great thread. Thanks.

 

Good comment Brian ... now I will go and sulk in the corner because I was not mentioned in the good post comment. Never mind I will try harder in the future

Owe well that is what happens when you are a kiwi, guess it is hard for you all to read and understand kiwi

Pete

 

I had a feeling a few of you would know Jay. It seems like he instructs for just about every club in the area. He probably hasn't paid for track time in years. We went to grad school together and have been good friends ever since. It was only natural that when I moved to the DFW area 1 1/2 years ago that he would get me hooked on this. He often comes to MSR with me on member days, without his car, just to ride along and coach me. I always have my best laps with him in the car.

My 911 has very good power/weight (205 rear wheel hp and 2550 lbs with 5/8 tank of gas) but suspension and brakes issues that need to be sorted out still. Its still running on its 21 year old stock suspension and stock SC brakes. Even with a cooling kit ducting air to the rotors I will begin to fade before the end of a 30 minute session. In its current condition I bet it could still get down to 1:27, but it will be a long while before it sees that with me at the wheel. Between weather, work, and mechanical issues I haven't had a good run since Thanksgiving. I am going to need some practice just to get back where I was. If the weather holds and I get no surprises at work next week, I might try and sneak out there on Friday next week. Anyone else free?

 

OK, I have these karts for sale, see?

So anybody that wants to practice up, like me and Schumi, just let me know.
They are in the way of me getting the speedboat out of the garage! LOL!

Dave, we need to get together next TWS event. I'll get some fresh Goodyears on and you can show me a thing or two!

The thing karts show you is that trying to "beast" the car costs you every time! It's about carrying the speed thru the line!

I lost the brakes one race and ran the last four laps without 'em. Only lost a couple of tenths! They black flagged me though, when they realized I didn't have any!!
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Fair enough. And what you said about learning in a lessor car is spot on.

I never said the Vette suspension was superior, and in may ways it is NOT, however, it does create a more grip in pure cornering. If grip is the only metric of a suspension then (and only then) is the Vette suspension superior. Once you get into feel and feedback the Ferrari suspension is vastly better. Some of this is due to the bigger tires the Vette invariably selects, and some of it is the way Ferrari trades absolute grip for control and feedback.

And this is the one of the main reason that traction control systems have arrisen, the drivers can't; unfortunately......