Dear community, I really need your help in order to get a Ferrari 275 GTB/2 RHD (1966) back to his lawful owner (see thread of yesterday). It would be kind if you could answer some of my questions concerning the purchase of such a Ferrari: - What documents do you want to see from the seller before you buy a car. - What price would you pay for such a car in good shape? Is 150'000 a reasonable price? - What do you know or want to know about the specific car before you buy it? - Do you know the other owners of this specific type of Ferrari? - When do you get suspicious when you buy such a car? What are the factors that would make you believe that this car might have an illegal "background"? It would be great if some of you could answer these questions. My email address is [email protected]. With your help we can hopefully get the car back to his legal owner. Thanx and have a great weekend Jobba
Do you have a relation to this car in any way or have you just read about it? It seems to me that you are asking a lot of questions regarding what people would like to know when they are buying a car like this.
some of these are weird questions in the context of a search & rescue mission, jobba. is someone holding the car hostage? doody.
he seems to be for real attorney at that firm, enzo. i doubt he's part of the problem although i doubt there's an actual solution - this car is gone. http://www.mme-law.ch/mme/lawyers/baier_jonatan.html doody.
that's cool Doody just some of those questions raised some flags with me. No offense Jobba. Jobba do you know of the Gietz family from Zurich?
give it to interpol, man... that car is in a container headed for the middle east or orient... probably some sex slaves in there, too....
on the open market a clear title is important, but others build a collection "stolen to order"..........
Thanx for your quick answers ;-) Just to let you know, we have actually found the car and the police has seized it. The Ferrari was sold by its garagiste (apparently in financial problems), who was just told to repair and maintain it, to a collector in Switzerland. But in order for the legal owner to get his beloved car back, we have to bring an action against the collector. In this action we must proove that the collector was in bad faith when he bought the car from the garagiste; meaning that the buyer must have been aware of the illegal background of this car. I we cannot prove it, the collector will be able to keep the Ferrari - that's the Swiss law. That's actually why I'm asking all these questions. I think that the buyer must have been in bad faith because the price for the car was too low ( 150'00) and the garagiste didn't have all the documents for the sale. But I am not a Ferrari expert and all of you are. That's why I rely on your answers. Ok, I hope to hear from you soon. Thanx! Jobba
150,000 euro would be a good deal, but not a GREAT deal... how about stealing it "back"??? jus kiddin', but the current owner cannot have clear title can they?????
very useful data, jobba. now we can be helpful, i think. CONGRATS on finding the car - that's stellar. as to your burden of proof, i think you've got a tough one. there are two kinds of ferrari buyers. the first and most common (imo) are the educated folks. the second are the impulse buyers - and there are plenty of these folks. the educated buyers will research the crap out of a car before they buy it, ESPECIALLY a vintage car. there were only a couple hundred (205 according to Cavallino) 1964-1966 275 GTB Long nose cars in the world. that's about 68 per year. the usual suspects (GR, WA, KB, MS, etc.) here in the states would undoubtedly be contacted for data on such a vehicle. even FNA or FSpA. i briefly considered buying a 275 a couple years ago. there is no way i would have bought without querying at least ferrari itself, if not a few of the usual suspects, posting it here, and so on and so forth. so for the first class of buyer, absolutely they'd have learned and known it was fraud. however, that latter group of buyers really do exist. cars are just toys at the end of the day. some of these guys wouldn't do real research on a low six figure purchase - not cost effective. write the check and be done with it. the swiss law sounds really unpleasant in this regard. good luck. doody.
Although I'm not sure it helps much but to give the car itself some history, here's some information to read up on: http://www.qv500.com/ferrari275mr.htm http://www.qv500.com/ferrari275p2.htm http://www.qv500.com/indexferrari5.htm Also, here's one for sale, fetching 295,000 Euro. http://www.carclassic.com/html/DM45.htm IMO, 150,000 would be a bargain if it were in great condition, given the proper documents. Documentation that would be necessary would be any service records and receipts, along with any kind of restoration documentation if there was such a process done to this car. If it were restored, I'd inquire with the actual shop that did the restoration, if it were done within the past ten years. Not in my experience, but in reading, a restorer/mechanic would have quite an intimiate knowledge of such a car. Someone that owns and maintains a 200K+ valued car is going to have some mechanic to work out the kinks every so often and just know it very well. Edit: Sheehan has an article on the 275 GTB/2 here: http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_200401.shtml
Hi Are you saying that under Swiss Law title passes even though the person conveying it didn't have it?
I think that would have been quite helpful around 1942-1945 with a variety of valuables passing through Switzerland.
Title may pass if the purchaser can show good faith and a claim against the title is not made within a certain time by the rightful owner/holder of the title; in this case, the rightful owner of the car...(this time limit depends on the laws of where the item made subject of the dispute is located). - I am not personally familiar with Swiss law, but I do know that there are similar laws to this one in the US that address issues of title, however the time limit to contest the title of the "new" owner by the owner claiming fraud or theft is several years...the only defense to this on the part of the "new" owner is "good faith" in purchase - after that, it gets extremely complicated... Good luck man...
If in fact Swiss law is "he who holds it owns it" unless you can prove outright fraud.... then Im with Speedy308. Pay some really bad guys to bust up the buyer, hold him hostage until the car is safely back with the rightful owner and then just have the owner rescind his claims it was ever stolen to begin with. Of coarse this is not possible currently since the authorities have siezed the car. It sure sounds like a total nightmare. With Swiss law being like this... im surprised there is not an entire cottage industry of people stealing high end collector cars, faking the title work and history and then selling to Swiss collectors. It could easily be done where "proving" the buyer knew the car was bogus would be just about impossible. To your questions, anyone who would pluck down that kind of coin without being positive he is receiving clear title with the vehicle is either an idiot OR a criminal. Idiots generally dont have 150K laying around to blow on a car. Terry
Wouldn't the original owner have had insurance on the car and been paid off from the theft? Seems to be opening a new can of worms here. I could see if he had an emotional attachment to the car and wanted it back but it seems like a lot of hassle especially if he was covered by insurance.
