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New 456 Owner

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Ado4wd, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    Hello all

    thought I’d introduce myself as I’m sure I’ll be needing your help throughout my 456 ownership.

    I have a 458 but wanted to add something that I could put the whole family in that also had a gated shifter. So I bought a 97 456 from a fellow f-chatter.

    It arrived yesterday and I think the honeymoon is over before it started. After unloading and shutting the car down the left headlight would not retract.

    I checked the relays and the fuse and this is not the issue. The WSM describes a manual procedure for lowering the light but this does not seem to work or I’m doing it wrong.

    any suggestions for lowering manually?
    Any suggestions on what to check for a permanent fix?

    Thanks in advance.
     
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  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie
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    Ian Riddell
    #3 Qavion, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
    Andrew, the gearing on headlights is very high. You have to turn the knob a lot before anything happens. Either that, or the gearing is broken.

    Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find any useful wiring diagrams for the 456. The headlights may be similar to the 355's headlights. There are quite a few relays involved. However, the most common problem with these kind of headlights are:
    Broken plastic gears
    Corrosion on a metal disk inside the gearbox (or broken fingers/contacts which move over the disk).

    If these are not causing the problem, then it could be:
    Diode problems (on the gearbox/motor assembly).
    Simple motor failure.
    Rusted linkages between the motor and the headlight pod.
    Corroded pins/sockets on motor power connector.

    If you can't get the headlight to move manually, then it does sound like a gearbox problem.
     
    Bundy likes this.
  5. killer58

    killer58 Formula 3

    Jun 30, 2010
    1,142
    CA & DC
    Andrew,
    Frustrating for sure, but don’t despair quite yet.
    The 456 is a wonderful GT, but as a 20+ yr old car, they’re going to have their issues.
    Chalk it up to part of their “charm.”

    Do a search, you’ll find some info about the headlights. There are options, they’re just not necessarily quick, cheap, or easy.
    I had a similar issue when I first got mine, neither light stowed completely. Luckily, I was able to fix it by adjusting each and reseating all connectors. And without buying any parts.

    Fingers crossed for you.
     
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  6. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Oct 15, 2012
    6,725
    Exeter and Cirencester
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    John
    Take it to a specialist and have them fix it for you?
     
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  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,080
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    John- Easy enough in the UK, but his nearest Ferrari dealers (from Tennessee) are in Georgia or North Carolina. Maybe an independent (Euro Imports) in Memphis, but I know nothing about them.
     
  9. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Oct 15, 2012
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    Yes, I always forget about distances in the USA. My nearest Ferrari main agent is 2 miles away. I can walk it in under half an hour and frequently do - it's a pleasant stroll along the banks of the River Exe to get back home when I drop mine off for service.:)
     
  10. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    Yes I am the local specialist - haha!

    I have seen two 456s in my entire life. One in London and the one in my garage.

    Let the adventures begin.

    Thanks all for the advice. I’ll be digging in a little deeper today.
     
    635CSI, Bundy and Bluebottle like this.
  11. tantumaude

    tantumaude Formula Junior
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    Mar 3, 2016
    612
    Burlington, Canada
    Full Name:
    Mat
    I had that issue with mine when I got it. Turns out the rubber cap on the white thumb wheel was binding against something and preventing it from turning. Notched the cap, never had a problem since.
     
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  13. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    It’s weird. The motor turns fine and the light raises fine but will not go down.

    when you try and turn the knob to manually lower while there is power (even if the car is off) the motor will fight you and not allow it to be lowered.
    When I unplug the motor I can manually lower it. I’ll remove it when I have time and see what else I can find.
     
  14. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie
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    Feb 20, 2015
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    Interesting. That might be a clue. It's not a relay problem for sure. The motors are getting power via the motor relays and a failure of the third headlight motor control relay would affect both headlight pods (i.e. relay "D")

    What do you mean by "power"? Headlights still turned on? Or battery not disconnected?

    Both headlight pods are lowered by de-energising headlight relay "D". This is done by turning off the headlights. This removes ignition key power from the solenoid of relay "D". Note that the headlight lifting motors only run in one direction. It's just the way the linkages are set up that makes the headlight pods cycle up and down. Electrical contacts inside the gearbox stop the motor moving at the fully up and fully down positions.

    So you don't know if the previous owner had this problem or if he has done anything to try to fix it. On this type of headlight mechanism, there may be 3 electrical plugs. A single wire plug for earth (ground) and two dual pin black and white plugs. Make sure that the black and white plug halves are matched to their counterparts and that the pins/sockets are tight and clean. It's probably best to do this before you start buying expensive components.

    Although there is mention of a diode mounted on the motor/gearbox assembly on the forums, it's not shown in Ferrari wiring diagrams, so I'm not sure of its function.

    There may be a simple problem with system, but getting access to components is usually a pain. If you have to remove the headlight pod, make sure you protect the paint surfaces with masking tape.
     
  15. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    With the battery still connected but the car turned off (key removed) the motor still fights me when I try to manually lower the light.

    previous owner notes that this never happened.

    I’ll check the connections. Thanks for the help.
     
    Thomas Magnum likes this.
  16. Thomas Magnum

    Thomas Magnum F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Feb 24, 2013
    7,827
    Piperton, TN
    Full Name:
    Mark
    Check your private messages. Congrats on the 456!
     
  17. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    I removed the motor and while disconnected from the linkage it cycled just fine - doing exactly as it was asked to.

    I even plugged it in on the other side and operation was identical.

    I reinstalled and it’s the same thing. Will only operate one one direction - this time only going down instead of up. At a loss at this point.
     
  18. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    Qavion likes this.
  19. Prit Singh

    Prit Singh Karting

    May 29, 2017
    96
    London
    Congratulations
     
  20. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie
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    Strange, you would think that a stripped spline would affect both up and down. Anyway, sounds like the mechanism needs a good lubrication.
    Hope you can find a replacement link.
     
  21. Ado4wd

    Ado4wd Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2005
    280
    Germantown, TN
    Full Name:
    Andrew O
    I agree. Doesn’t make since. I’m going to swap the motors and see what happens.
     
  22. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jan 21, 2004
    1,674
    Argent/Brasil
    Full Name:
    Guido
    If you need the interior diagram from your fuseboard : it is in mirror view and split in 2 for more clearness.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Diagram is the same for 456 GT and 456 M. Make shure the relais are not mixed up. Relais D is ending Bosch 159 I believe.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Further : you can connect the wires outside your board like on this picture above. Those connections are connected inside your board and are doing nothing else there. So connecting them outside is less stress and less heatbuilding.
    Guido
     
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  23. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie
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    Guido, would you have a slightly clearer photo of the interior diagram. I can't quite read the relay pin numbers and some of the connections. Can you perhaps scan the drawing and save as a pdf?

    This is like the Holy Grail for 456 owners with electrical problems :) Thanks!

    We just need someone to figure out how to redraw the schematic with relay symbols :rolleyes:
     
  24. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    Jan 21, 2004
    1,674
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    Guido
    Hi, Ian...I did start a conversation with you. Unfortunaly I cannot open this file as pdf for some reason. But the picture I send you can zoom it until you see everything more clear.
    I use this diagram to make NEW motherboards for 456. Like I make them also for F40, 288GTO, all mondials, TR, Testarossa, 328, 400i, 412, 550, 512TR...
    See example of a 456 board :

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Mean problem with OEM boards are the male connectors where the wires are put on. The female wire connector touches this only by 2 mm. If one of the colored plugs is'nt put spot on, you have almost no contact.
    On the NEW board those male connectors are 2 mm longer. Also the relais connectors are robust with 2 solder pins of 2.5 mm2, instead of 1 pin of 1.3 mm2 OEM. Fuse connectors are also bigger and stronger with 2 bigger solder pins. And no more of those crappy plastic layers on the back. I use solid 2.5 mm2 wires to connect everything.
    Guido
     
  25. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
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    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Send one of us a clearer photo and we can convert it to a pdf in Photoshop.
     
    fridolin_pt likes this.
  26. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    Jan 21, 2004
    1,674
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    Guido
    Terry, can you start a conversation with me...there is no "conversation" in your profil to start. Picture I have can be send to you. But the actual drawing I have in Belgium and I'm in South America until may next year.
    Or make contact via email : theunissenguido@hotmail.com
    Guido
     
  27. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    33,080
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Guido- I do not do conversations/private messages here because I get asked too many questions I am unqualified to answer. Will send you an e-mail. Spent some time in Argentina in 2008 fly fishing in Patagonia. Really enjoyed it there and the fishing was great. Girls were pretty, too.
     
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  28. Qavion

    Qavion F1 Rookie
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    Feb 20, 2015
    4,890
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    Ian Riddell
    Sorry for hijacking Andrew's message thread, but here is my first attempt at duplicating Guido's diagram.

    Ferrari 456 Fuse/Relay Panel Graphic

    There are a few things I can't make out, so don't treat it as gospel. I've just used random colours for the wires (I usually try to match the colours to the wires going to/from the fusebox). It's a Euro diagram with a "twin switch" relay in position "M". USA cars use an ordinary relay (I believe it has something to do with which lights illuminate when you flash the lights).

    The diagram is basically useless unless you have a Workshop Manual with the plug/connector pinouts (and not always then).
     

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