Is see the new V8 in the F430 has timing chains instead of belts. As I understand it, belts are more efficient and cheaper to build. However chains don't need changing nearly as often, and are more likely to give warning of impending failure. So why have Ferrari switched? Is it to reduce warranty claims? Is it to make them more affordable to run? Do chains offer some other advantage over belts?
Competitive pressure....the Gallardo has chains. Ferrari must stay competitive on maintanence cost issues.
Chains are great. But chains or belts, has Ferrari ever managed to add a simple tension sensor to these timing chains/belts yet?! Porsche has had them (at $15 per car) since 1985. Is this going to be another of those issues as from Ferrari lore when a racer *shamed* Enzo back in the day into finally adding disc brakes to F-cars...when said racer, at his own expense, replaced the Ferrari drum brakes with disc brakes and demonstrated the superior performance?! Do we F-chatters have to show Ferrari how to add a $15 tension sensor for *our* timing belts?!
Funny! Tension sensors, however, tell us when we've got a loose belt...something that has happened to numerous F-car owners at low mileage (e.g. 6,000 miles after a Major) long before a 15,000 mile scheduled tension check maintenance period comes around. They can even tell us this information *prior* to starting the ignition, the key point when belts typically break (i.e. on startup).
On a Ferrari a properly installed belt will not over it's entire life stretch enough to slip. I have a significant amount of experience with belt failures, I suspect more than you, strech from usage does not cause them. The only need for a belt tension warning device is to warn of a tensioner failure, one problem Ferrari does not suffer.
I thought you only needed a tension warning on chains because they stretch a lot more than belts do before they fail. Certainly my belt driven 928 engine hasn't got any sort of belt tension warning. But the Porsche Flat 6 has chain driven cams I think?
If your Porsche 928 was built *after* 1984, it has a timing belt tension sensor on it. It looks like this: Image Unavailable, Please Login
My Ferrari 348 manual says to inspect my timing belt tension every 15,000 miles. What do you know that Ferrari doesn't?
Aha! I've had 2, one of them 1981 and the other 1984. Neither had the warning light, but they both may have been too early? I know the 928 S4s had chains AND belts...what's that all about?
Many cars have both. Ferrari 348's have a chain driving at least one of our two oil pumps, but a belt drives the water pump and cams. As for Porsche, they finally got around to adding their timing belt tension sensor to their 1985 928 models as a method to reduce their engine failures. It worked. Even with a massive 82.5 inch long timing belt, the $15 tension sensor saved countless 928 V8's. Apparently, the belt typically gets loose (per specs) for some amount of time *prior* to actual slippage or breakage.
Last question first, little or nothing. The Ferrari manual says a lot of things, some of them actually have something to do with real world servicing of Ferrari's. As a response from them (the factory) when I asked in about 1985, what exactly was meant by that instruction (it is not the only time that appears in various service schedules) I was told it was basic CYA on Ferrari's part. We were told to perform belt inspections to shift the responsibility from Ferrari to us (or the owner, lacking service records) for belt related failures. Ferrari has been very cautious about belt drive systems and been very aware about their liabilities since they started using them. I have said many times here I am very pleased they are finally getting rid of them.
Sure, Ferrari is moving away from belts in *new* models, but thousands of F-car owners are going to be driving models that rely on belts for decades still to come...and we need belt tension sensors (ala 1985 and newer Porsche 928's). If for nothing else, for peace of mind. Just as Ferrari was concerned (per you, above) about shifting liability for belt failures away from them to dealers or owners, so too are owners concerned about actual belt failures. ...And there in our manuals it states in Black and White to go pull our 348 engines every 15,000 miles to check the tension in our timing belt. Well, if we *don't* check that tension, then we start worrying about not following Factory maintenance schedules. Ferrari Anxiety strikes. We start fearing even getting our cars out to drive. Or we follow the Ferrari maintenance schedule to the letter at great expense (and at considerable loss of usage of our cars as they spend days in the shop). The *better* solution to either option above is to install a $15 timing belt tension sensor. It's peace of mind. It's also functional. Should we encounter high heat, high humidity, then low temperatures and/or low humidity, we can rest easy knowing that our timing belt hasn't stretched out of spec...if we have the tension sensor. Porsche had enough timing belt failures to warrant installing that sensor, and this forum certainly talks a great deal about belts, too (for a good reason). Lets be clever about this issue.
This time READ post 6. Verrell told you the same thing in another thread. If you feel you're right and everyone else is wrong go ahead and capatilize on the paranoia and build a device. You can probably get a marketing company to peddle them on late night TV just like all the other snake oil. BTW Since when do you pull the motor to ck timing belt tension on any Ferrari? With all due respect I think your lack of knowledge of the subject has led to your paranoia.
Everyone else being you and Verrell?! Yes, you and Verrell are well intentioned, but Ferrari is admitting that there is a belt issue by moving to a timing chain, for one thing, and for another thing, Porsche *knew* that there was a tension problem with their 82.5 inch timing belt on their V8 engines (at least, in their post 1981 interferrence versions). That's why Porsche *added* the belt tension sensor by 1985. Moreover, Ferrari *tells* us all to inspect and check our timing belt tension every 15,000 miles. Now for you and Verrell, perhaps you've both convinced yourselves that checking the timing belt tension is for suckers, that you know better than Ferrari, that it's all just Marketing or for appearances or whatever...but you two are in the minority (though you both appear somewhat vocal about it). Perhaps you're both even right, and the Ferrari and Porsche factories are wrong, that owners shouldn't even have to worry about timing belt tension if the service for each new belt is done properly. But it's a $15 sensor. How big is the downside to adding a proven Porsche 928 sensor (or some variation on that theme) to give Ferrari owners peace of mind for their $20,000+ engines?! Scuderia Shields cost more than a sensor that has been *proven* to have saved Porsche 928 V8 engines...yet you and Verrell seem to think that this sensor is "snake oil" that Ferrari (and owners) should stay away from at all costs. Frankly, I don't see your motivation. $15 for peace of mind. We're talking about expensive Ferrari engines, and you are *fighting* to punish anyone who dares suggest protecting these machines by adding a $15 timing belt tension sensor. You are making very little sense to me. I just don't see a big "downside" to adding such a sensor. Betcha Lamborghini's and Porsche's and McClaren's all have these sensors on any of their modern engines that may run off of belts (perhaps even off of chains). It's like I'm hearing Enzo yelling at his crew that drum brakes are just fine...all over again. Who needs disc brakes?!
That's the part that I'm disputing for these reasons: 1. Ferrari TELLS us to check the timing belt tension every 15k miles (i.e., there may be stretching with usage), 2. Porsche started adding tension sensors to all of its V8's after its rash of engine failures up through 1984, 3. Ferrari has now moved to chains to get away from rubber timing belt failures, and 4. F-car owners on this forum have *documented* loose timing belts on their cars with as few as 6,000 miles. You *claim* that Ferrari's rubber timing belts don't stretch. I'm giving you 4 reasons above why they do, or may, stretch.
Ferrari says they went to chains to shorten the overall length of the motor. It does, indeed, look very short for it's displacement. Whether or not anyone wishes to believe there weren't other ulterior motives, would be up to the individual and how susceptible they are to conspiracy theories, etc. Dave
I'm not entirely convinced that you need a big conspiracy theory to believe that chains are better than rubber belts, for any number of reasons.
The best units of belt stretch are mm/mm or in/in. What that means is the for every inch of belt length there will be amount of strech and the longer the belt is to begin with, the more it will stretch. Porsche appearently found that there 82" long timing belt could stretch enough to cause a problem. Ferreari belts are MUCH shorter and I believe Rifledriver when he says they will not stretch enough to jump a tooth - the belts are just too short to stretch that much. I have never seen anything anywhere about a way to predict belt failure from belt stretch, age and run time seem to be the best indicators of belt condition. So, what exactly would a stretch sensor do for me?
Now for you and Verrell, perhaps you've both convinced yourselves that checking the timing belt tension is for suckers, that you know better than Ferrari, that it's all just Marketing or for appearances or whatever...but you two are in the minority Make that 3 in the minority "should stay away at all costs" ???? I do not remember Brian or Verrell stating that. With the 348 being the worst case subject due to the belt length, I have yet to see any belts that have stretched any near close to the amount needed to jump. Properly tensioned and installed they have posed no problem. Even on the 355 with a tensioner that moves and grows with heat, a total failure would not allow a belt to jump IF it was set PROPERLY in the first place. Most common belt failures occure when a tooth peals off the belt (at least in my very limited experiance). Adding sensors that watch for a problem that doesnt exist is a waste of time and money and will only give a false sence of security. Yes, there is a reason for those VERY expensive tension checking tools. Personally, I have thousands of dollars invested in these to assure a consistant and proper setting of all belt tensions. Worth it? Yup! Every major service has the set tensions noted and recorded that fit within a window that has been established and proven safe. Even within that window there are decissions made. Early 2 valve cars get a looser tension than the later cars hopeing to prolong the life of the front cover bearings. The only application I can think of that might prove to be a benifit would be on the 2 valve 308's with the early front cover bearings failing. Even there one would have to be deaf not to hear the noise they make when they are near a failure point. Proper maintaince on a proper schedual is all that is required to keep these cars reliable. PS $15 is only the start, now wire it properly, drill the dash for a light, fab brackets to mount the sensor. The cost starts to add up. Dave
Thanks, but I am only backing and explaining the statements made by a couple of sharp guys that know what they are talking about. Dave
Now for you and Verrell, perhaps you've both convinced yourselves that checking the timing belt tension is for suckers, that you know better than Ferrari, that it's all just Marketing or for appearances or whatever...but you two are in the minority The problem that I have is that you 3 are essentially ignoring Ferrari's maintenance schedule (which says to check the timing belt tension every 15,000 miles). Either we're supposed to check timing belt tension or else we aren't. And it isn't just Ferrari; *other* car makers such as Porsche, Acura, Volvo, etc. all say to check the tension in *their* timing belts, too. Yet you 3 are of the opinion that Ferrari timing belts won't *EVER* become so loose as to be a problem, so checking timing belt tension, for you 3, is a waste of effort. I strongly disagree with you 3. Granted, this is just one man's opinion, but I disagree with you.
