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New Ford GT

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by atomicskiracer, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. Sinovac

    Sinovac Karting

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    Modern performance cars make people with little-to-no talent think they are something special.

    This discussion reminds me why some people would rather stuff their face at an all-you-can-eat buffet rather than enjoy a good meal. To each his own.
     
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  2. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    Sometimes "yes", sometimes "no". Depends on road conditions, traffic conditions, my mood, etc etc

    One of the many amazing things about the Lambo Huracan, thanks to very modern AWD, is it's ability to put those 1200 horses to the road with very little drama ... aside from the blistering acceleration when demanded, of course.

    And one of the many amazing things about Underground Racing's enhancements, is the ability of the car to drive ... for hours ... at low speeds, in stop-n-start traffic. In fact, on my first test drive, we were stuck in a traffic jam for well over an hour. No overheating, no drama ... happy to drive slowly, all day long!

    Finesse when desired, as well as brute power when demanded? The car has it IN SPADES.
     
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  3. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Eh, I disagree. Unless you are able to adjust the distance the accelerator moves and the amount of torque transmitted to the wheels, driving a very high power car at part throttle is a very bad experience compared to a lower hp car at full throttle.

    Do you really think babying a LF at part throttle to match the performance of a 991 GT3 would be more fun than driving the 991 GT3 at full-tilt?
     
  4. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    No, i think that driving a LaF at part throttle will be about equal to driving a lower performance car at full throttle. Then, when you want more power ... the LaF will deliver, when the lower performance car can't. Then, the LaF will indeed be more fun.

    That's why more power is generally considered a positive thing among performance car enthusiasts :rolleyes:

    Seriously, this is beyond silly at this point. My point is ridiculously simple: More power from performance cars is, quite arguably, a good thing. A very good thing. Not so much so, though, that i would pay close to a million bucks more for 50 extra HP. The performance car market is way too competitive to justify that!

    But, as you suggested earlier, we'll just agree to disagree on this point ... and leave it at that.
     
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  5. dbk

    dbk Formula Junior

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    I talked to one of the race car drivers who had some time in it and asked his impressions. His response was "Significantly faster than the capability than 100% of the buyers." I would wager that is correct.

    The reality is 99.99% of people who ask for more power from a car that runs about what a GTE-Pro car does would never get remotely close to the limit of performance. A Senna, which is the standard for road car track brutality, ran Spa with a pro driver in the high 2:24s. Before that the Koenigsegg One:1 ran a 2:32. All the previous hypercar trio would be well north of that. This year GTE-Pro quali top time was in the 2:12s. Good luck with that. It's a track car for that purpose. I think it's expensive but they've already got them sold so I guess it's not that expensive.

    I'm sure it would be disappointing for highway roll ons. Cannot recommend for this purpose.
     
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  6. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    It's not road legal, so highway rolls shouldn't come up much ;)

    If you want highway pulls, just buy an 1800 hp UGR Huracan or something like that. No need to waste money on an expensive base car.
     
  7. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    I'm guessing that most enthusiasts couldn't lap faster than 7:45 on the 'ring ... first time, second time or third time out ... no matter what car you gave them.

    So ... should we all consider the latest Honda Civic Type R to be more street performance than we'll ever need? Personally, I like the car a lot ... I've owned just about every generation Honda Civic for the past 3 decades. But even though it would take lots of practice for me to equal (or beat) a 7:45 lap time in that car, i'm not satisfied with all it has to offer on the street.

    But then again, it has 300hp. Who needs more, on the street ... right? ;) I'm sure there are those who consider more than 300hp to be pointless.


    As i've written before, my point is simple: power is relative ... there is no absolute. As enthusiasts, we haven't yet found that "magic number" beyond which the fun of driving is reduced by adding more.

    ... but, having said all of that, there's no chance i'd pay close to a million for 50 extra hp, when so much more is already available for so much less.
     
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  8. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    But is more available for less? This isn't street legal and supposedly has times of a GTE car. There is no street car that can match the performance of this even with 2000 hp. The only way you'd get more power in such a car is with something like an LMP or F1 car, which will be vastly more than $1M.

    Also, a 488 GTE supposedly runs around $900K, so unrestricted about the same power and not much cheaper. 911 RSR around 1M Euro.

    I really don't think there are many new GTE-capable cars with 700hp that will run you much less than $1M and most won't be as rare as the GT. Seems like a fair price considering the competition/options in the space.

    Race cars are simply expensive to buy new.
     
  9. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    A mid-engine, AWD street car with 2000hp ... which would be close to 3x the power/weight ratio of the newer Ford GT, with MUCH better grip/pull through corners ... couldn't "match" the performance of the newer Ford GT? Why ... because it might not have the cool air intake or blue oval logo?

    You do realize, don't you, that the old-school, front-engine, RWD Viper ACR and C7 ZR1 already "match" or beat the new Ford GT on just about any track out there ... for 1/3 the price?

    Finally ... the only way to get more than 700hp is with an LMP or F1 car? :rolleyes:

    Yeah, i'm out. Have fun guys!
     
  10. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    #2235 noone1, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Are you talking about the right car? The car in question is the Ford GT MKII. This MKII is not an ECU tuned road-going NFGT. This is a slightly heavier GTE car.

    There is no chance any road car, no matter how much HP it had, could ever be competitive with a car like this. No amount of power in a Huracan is going to cut 25s off the lap time and make it competitive with a race car. If they could, race teams wouldn't spend millions on race cars, they'd just buy UGR cars. You'd have to re-engineer the entire car and it likely still wouldn't work well.

    If you think you can easily find race cars with more than 700 hp, feel free to share them here. I mean, you already know that the top class of GTE are not designed to that spec. The Porsche 919 Hybrid LMP1 was what, 1000 hp? I don't think you realize how different race cars are from normal cars. You don't just send a race car to UGR, ask them for bigger turbos and an ECU tune, and expect the car to still work properly.
     
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  11. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Hiya Jeff,

    Sorry, I'm late to the party. What specific 'car' are we talking about?
     
  12. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    #2237 werewolf, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    The most recent "debate", i think, was :

    - this newer Ford GT, with 50 extra horsepower and 200 pounds less weight
    <versus>
    - a hypothetical "street" car (along the lines of an Underground Racing Huracan) ... with 2000hp, mid-engine, all-wheel drive

    I say: this hypothetical street car would crush the newer Ford GT, on any track you can name. Why? Straight line speed is obviously no contest, as our hypothetical street car would have about 3x the power-to-weight ratio (with the AWD traction to put that power to the ground). Further, the AWD of the 2000hp street car will pull through corners with more grip. No contest, really, on straights OR in corners.

    I also refreshed the non-hypothetical comparison of the new (not newer) Ford GT, in comparison to a couple American cars costing 3x less ... Viper ACR, C7 Vette ZR1. The new (not newer) Ford GT is not coming out on top, on most track tests i've seen.

    But honestly, it's been hard to follow the conversation ...

    First, there's this idea that 700hp is all you could ever need, because any more power would decrease the "fun factor". It's funny, i don't remember too many people complaining about "too much power" in the new Ferrari SF90 :( People may (justifiably) complain about the hybrid tech in the SF90, they might (justifiably) complain about the cost of battery replacement ... but is anyone really suggesting that a Ferrari from a few years ago (458, for example) would be MORE fun, by singular virtue of having LESS power? I must have missed those posts ... but i do recognize that there are many people who think that 300hp from a Civic Type R is all you could ever want or need. I just don't happen to be one of them (even though i'm a die-hard Civic fan!).

    Second, there's this idea that 700hp in the newer Ford GT is the absolute pinnacle of track performance. Nothing could beat it, on any track. Nothing you can even imagine could possibly beat it ...


    I've stepped-out because the "debate" became silly, nothing more than argumentative for the sake of argument.
     
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  13. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Thanks Jeff, that's what I gathered, I thought I had missed something.

    Cheers
     
  14. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

    You seriously think a 2000 hp UGR Huracan is going to out lap an unrestricted LeMans GTE car? Go post that opinion over in the track/racing section and see what they say.

    I mean really, go for it. Go set a world record for a lap time in a 2000 hp UGR Huracan. You'll be famous. No one has done it yet, so the glory will be all yours. Take it to the NR and do around 6:30, which a BMW Z4 GT3 has no problem doing. And then run it for 24 hours straight.

    You've just solved every teams problem. You've found a way to make racing super cheap by lowering the cost of an equally performing car by 60%...
     
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  15. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    He thinks a UGR Huracan is faster than a GTE-class car, like the ones that run at LeMans, will be faster on a track. So... Huracan UGR > 488 GTE, 911 RSR, Ford GT, etc.
     
  16. paulchua

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    I don't know anything about "Underground Racing" (I presume that's what you refer to with UGR?)

    Are they tuned only for like 1/2 mile events? Is that why you're saying they would fail at the twists? I really don't know, I'm not in the loop with the tuner community.

    When it comes to extreme tuners, I do know they are usually faster, cheaper, so I have an open mind.
     
  17. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    #2242 noone1, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    They are nothing more than stock road cars with huge turbos. If it was this easy to create performance, race teams wouldn't be spending $1M on a 488 or 911.

    Audi and Lamborghini make GT3 races cars if the Huracan and R8. Why would they be anything like they are if all they needed to do was throw a couple turbos on it?
     
  18. dbk

    dbk Formula Junior

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one that is super confused by this.

    There is no way any person who has any real knowledge about cars can believe a Turbo Huracan street car would be remotely competitive with a track car that is slightly less capable than a GTE-Pro car (and that difference is pretty much entirely down to the difference between the Michelin customer slick vs. Michelin Confidential Slick).

    This understanding of grip is...really something.
     
  19. paulchua

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    Now I'm really confused, I thought the debate is between the new GT40 vs a hyper moded 'hypothetical car' and if said hypothetical car could beat the GT40?

    I am definitely missing something.
     
  20. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Okay, I went back and re-read posts and I think I got it?

    Noone1 is saying UGR can't beat the GT40 on any track. I don't know, can it? Beats me. I don't know anything about the car in question.

    Werewolf (I don't mean to put words in his mouth) but I think is saying all else being equal a car with much more power should be faster.

    What am I missing?
     
  21. paulchua

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    P.S. If Lewis Hamilton is driving said UGR car and I the IMSA GT 40, I would hand him the trophy even before lights out.
    :)
     
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  22. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    #2247 noone1, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Because all else can't be equal and it wouldn't be cheap to try. To be competitive with a GTE car, the UGR Huracan would need pretty much every single part of the car changed to that of the Huracan GT3 race car and on top of that it still probably wouldn't work because 2000 hp TT Huracan engines are not meant for this purpose.

    I can't even imagine how laggy such an engine would be going from heavy braking to full throttle over and over. And let's not forget about how you'd even keep the car cool.

    If pumping 2000 hp TT cars was the solution to fast track cars, it would be done. It's not though. There is no good way to make that amount of power in a track-oriented car. AMG One and Valkyrie will be insane performance, yet they won't be anywhere near UGR cars and for good reason. Huge HP 1/2 mile drag racing engines are not the solution to fast lap times.
     
  23. werewolf

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    #2248 werewolf, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Thanks. You're not missing much!

    All i'm saying is that a car with LOTS MORE power (3 times more), comparable weight, comparable chassis balance (mid-engine), and all-wheel drive ... will likely spank another car with LOTS LESS power (3 times less), comparable weight, comparable chassis balance (mid-engine), and rear-wheel-only drive. We will, of course, also assume very similar tires, ample braking power, and sufficient engine cooling in both cases (remember, i started the discussion of the Underground Huracan with strong evidence of how it easily kept it's cool in HOT, stop-and-go traffic for hours on end).

    It's got nothing to do with "racing class" or "brand name" ... it pretty much comes down to physics LOL

    Others disagree ... if the lower hp, 2WD car wears a blue oval :rolleyes:

    EDIT: Oh wait ... i understand the confusion. If the "racing class" we're talking about restricts engine power to, say, 600hp in both cases ... then the higher power car loses it's advantage. Got it! That's where the "racing class" discussion comes into play :D

    ... but then there's still that pesky AWD vs 2WD :(
     
  24. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    Well of course it will. What the heck is the point in saying "Car A is slower than Car A + more hp" ? Of course all else being equal the car with more HP will be quicker?

    The fact is though that you can't get any of those "comparable" things for anywhere near the price you think. So while you think $1M is too expensive for 700 hp, the fact is that your $1M isn't going towards the hp, it's going towards every other bespoke racing-developed component on the car. It's not the 50 extra hp that's making the MKII as fast as a GTE car, it's all the other stuff.

    $1M is overpriced for 700hp. $1M is not overpriced for everything else that comes with it.

    So if you think you can get a similar performing car for a lot less, you should start selling them yourself. I'm sure racing teams would love to be able to get the same results for a lot less...
     
  25. dbk

    dbk Formula Junior

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    Yikes dude.

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