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New Ford GT

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by atomicskiracer, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. werewolf

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    #2251 werewolf, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    PLEASE, tell us all those "magical things" that make the 3x lower hp car faster! All those "other things" (not power!) that justify the extra million bux ... what are they, specifically?

    Remember ... the two cars in question have comparable weight, comparable chassis balance (mid-engine), same tires, ample braking and sufficient engine cooling to run all day long. These comparable points have been clear in the discussion, since the discussion began!

    One car has 3x the power of the other car, AND the higher power car has VERY good all-wheel-drive ... whereas the lower power car only has two-wheel-drive.

    Aside from vague generalities about a "racing class" that restricts or limits power in both cases :rolleyes: tell us all ... very specifically ... what physics, what dynamics, will make the lower-power car faster.

    PLEASE. I'm waiting ...
     
  2. paulchua

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    #2252 paulchua, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    Thanks for the clarification, makes sense to me now. The debate is literally that specific UGR Huracan vs a IMSA New "Track Variant" of the GT40? Just confirming I got this right.

    Edit:

    I think if constrained to IMSA standards, then yes @noone1 it's a moot point since one would have to under-tune/modify the UGR considerably, so I get what you're saying. Either way best way to settle the debate is for werewolf to take his car to track and get some lap times!

    :)
     
  3. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Firstly the hurrucan has more weight. Secondly there is this really important thing on track called downforce. Thridly, the hurucan wouldnt last 3 laps before it blew.
    Theres a difference between a lightenign lap which sells magazines and corvettes and a fast car on track which can run full pace for multiple laps.Theres a reason a 2 litre sports prototype from the early 70s will outlap a 700hp 1700lbs maclaren can am car from a mere few years earlier. Theres a reason we dont see hurucans on track, and theres a reason why the performante is way slower than the less powerful hurucan Gt4.

    As was explained to me by DrTodt of ferrari F1 winning fame. When youre going for pole position you sue lots of wing and downforce even thought he car is much slower on the straights, laptime coems from corners. Any fool can floor a car in strightline, theyl also probably brake way sooner, overbrake and then try floor it off the apex. The porche 550 spyder slew giants and it had way less hp.

    On street, yeah hp rules, but thats why a hellcat is so cool, but sucks on track.

    Bottom line, if youre going tog o really fast in the 2ks with limited exceptions the track is the place to do it. A UGR hurucan wont last 3 laps and theyre not going to be that impressive to start with. I have 3 fiends with UGR hurucans, they also dont makle the advertised hp when independantly tested, but yeah they still have lots of it.
     
  4. werewolf

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    Firstly, the car in question has 3x the power ... but has nowhere near 3x the weight.
    Secondly, this "thing called downforce" is wonderfully addressed by the advanced, innovative aero in the Performante. Check its performance at the 'ring.
    Thirdly, there's ZERO evidence that the higher power car would "blow" after 3 laps LOL whereas the lower power car wouldn't :rolleyes: remember, at the opening of this discussion both cars were assumed to have sufficient engine cooling.

    But thanks for playing!!

    No one has yet to explain why the 2WD 700hp car would beat the AWD 2000hp car on the track ... with comparable chassis balance, comparable-enough weight (to still give the higher hp car a tremendous power/weight advantage), comparable tires, comparable brakes and sufficient engine cooling in both cars.

    Unless, of course, the argument is that the 700hp car wins in LM GTE racing class ... anyone care to explain why? Here's a hint: The answer has nothing to do with magic physics ;)
     
  5. Sinovac

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    This. $1.2m for a homologation track special like the GT, a proven one at that, is a bargain. Some don’t think it’s worth the money. That’s ok. I don’t think a Fast and the Furious-ized Lamborghini is worth the money either.
     
  6. werewolf

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    #2256 werewolf, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    DING DING DING!!

    Yes, we finally have a winner! The lower-power car beats the higher-power car in GTE because the higher power car wouldn't be allowed to race!

    The engine is too big, and has too much power, to satisfy the restrictions in the rules.


    That's why manufactures aren't entering 2000hp, twin-turbo, 5.2 Liter engines in GTE. Not because they will lose to those much lower-powered cars with "magic physics", but because the engines are severely restricted to keep the field competitive (if memory serves, there's also rules about manufacturing certain numbers of cars ... and a host of other restrictions as well).

    Does this mean that the AWD car with 3x more power would lose, on a track, to the lower-powered 2WD car with comparable chassis dynamics, tires, brakes and sufficient cooling ... if it were allowed to race?

    Of course not.

    YES, Virginia, more power is "a good thing" among car enthusiasts ... unless, of course, you're racing in a class that PROHIBITS more power :rolleyes:

    I'm really quite stunned that this needed to be explained ... i mean, wow.
     
  7. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Actualy I agree with others here,
    When it comes to the track, .you really dont know what youre talking about.

    Maybe on street cars with short bursts of speed "because youre not really allowed to go fast 2000 or whatever hp makes sense because accleration is asense of speed..
    Also a performante performs well on track for a street car, as does a Gt3, compared to a dedicated track car though theyre way off pace, not even close, and that includes track dedicated versions of those same cars. The track is just a such a different enviroment, that as good as any street car may be on track, theyre just good for street cars. Its also the reason real track cars don't work on street.

    As for the new ford Gt. The Mk2 is probably an excellent track car, albeit an expensive one, but so is the new brabham or track only version of the Senna. In some ways these cars are like the old group C, unrestricted and therefore the best performance possible.

    What makes the Ford Gt appealing is in many ways the street version is still very much in feel like a track car, and it has the winning provenance. Are there some street cars that are legitimately faster on track, probbaly. Fact is though even with 650hp very few can drive the Gt to its limits on track, and sustain that pace for say 40 mins. At full tilt on track youre using 85_100% of the car all the time, not just power but brakes and cornering. Youre braking from 160 to 50 in what seems like 20 ft. Brake slightly too soon or slightly too hard and the time lost entering the corner, corner speed and therefore exit cant be made up with power down a straight or even off the apex.

    I grew up in africa where it was all open road and you could go as fast as the car could go (as long as you kept it on the road.) In those days the fastest cars i had my hands on were a zr1 vette and a countach, plus a maxed out run in a freinds diablo. Im not talkign breifly hitting a speed but running at full gallop for a while.. Hell even my volvo 850 turbo would cruise at 155 for 2 hours, and my quickest run ever between two cities was in a jag XJS which would totaly suck on track but was stable and fast on the open road. The vette went 186 and the countach could hit 175 by which time engine temps were rising so fast you had to back off.. Thats a very different enviroment to going full tilt on track. On an open road a hurcan with twin turbos will smoke almost anything for sure and be the weapon of choice, but the Gt was built for a very different enviroment and to work in a different enviroment. I get going fast in road car, its fun as hell, but you cant do that here, not for long, and the track is its own enviroment that rewards machines with different attributes.

    Personaly for the USA and amg merc or bently works great on street, both those cars have all the street performance you can deploy with any degree of sanity, yet they have suspension brakes and other attributes that work great on street. And if I lived in Florida or texas and had acess to some open road here or there a new Zr1 or Twin turbo Hurrucan would be just awesome, because thats whateyre built for.
    And Ill bet a Jeep would be great for offroad in arizona, because thats what its built for..
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    It doesent have comparable chasis balance. In reality it weights a lot more, burning up the tires and brakes a lot faster. Its generaly softer suspension designed for street only. Its transmission cooling, engine cooling engine lubrication are not designed for sustained full tilt like a real track cars is and therefore at full tilt it will fail, if it doesent overheat one of the diffs first. Nor is an aftermarket boosted engine designed with durability in mind for the track. Theyre designed to run on road where 95-99.99% of the time youre using less than 50% power if that, with breif full throttle spurts, as opposed to on track where its 85-100% power 100% of the time.

    Then theres the things like wheel bearings the temps the brake rotors can handle, calipers, etc, in fact the list is endless of the multitude of small differences between what will survive on street or track. Horses for courses.

    By way of analogy, the corvette GS is way way better on track (if youre doign more than two laps) than the ZR1, and the GS has 460 to the ZR1s 750 hp.
     
  9. werewolf

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    You really don't understand the first thing about the physics of an automobile.

    You haven't offered ONE plausible reason why more hp in a car with comparable chassis dynamics, comparable weight (certainly, nowhere near the power differential), comparable weight distribution, comparable tires, comparable brakes, and sufficient cooling would be SLOWER than a much lower hp car ... on a track, or on the street.

    There's nothing "magic" about track cars ... it all comes down to basic physics : power, weight, weight distribution, traction, adequate cooling, aerodynamics ... if these categories are all comparable, than the higher hp car wins, period. When all of these dynamic elements are comparable, it simply doesn't matter if one is called a "track car" versus another called a "street car". All other things being close to equal, the car with 3x the power wins. Period. Especially if the higher hp car also has electronically controlled torque distribution between front and rear tires, whereas the lower hp car doesn't.

    The "track car" isn't magically faster on the track, with much MUCH lower power, simply because it's labeled a "track car".

    Physics doesn't care if the car is called a "track car" or a "street car" ... all other things being close to equal, the car with 3x the power wins. No matter what it's called, no matter who manufacturers it. All cars are subject to the laws of physics, not just track cars ... not just street cars.

    I'll give you one more chance: with comparable weight, comparable weight distribution, comparable tires, adequate brakes and adequate engine cooling for both cars to run all day long, WHY ... exactly, specifically ... would a 2WD car with 3x lower power be faster on a track, than an AWD car with 3x more power?

    So far, your answer has been: it's marketed as a "track car". Problem is, physics doesn't care what it's called. Got anything better?
     
  10. werewolf

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    #2260 werewolf, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Try to follow the discussion, ok?

    A basic premise ... since the discussion first started ... was that BOTH cars have adequate cooling. NEITHER is going to suffer overheated brakes, overheated transmissions, overheated differentials, or overheated engines.

    Care to try again? Tell us why the 3x lower HP car is faster on the track ... by singular virtue of its dramatically lower power.
     
  11. werewolf

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    #2261 werewolf, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
    Let's try this ... let's bring the discussion back from the land of the hypothetical :)

    Put aside price, for a second. Is it possible to identify a "street car" ... any street car at all ... that can lap a track (any track), faster than a Porsche 911 GT3?

    Most here would say:"NO WAY! The GT3 is about as close as you can get, to a car designed, built and marketed as a special-purpose 'track car'. There's no way ANY 'street car' could beat it, on ANY track. The GT3 has all of the 'special sauce' to beat ANY 'street car' on ANY track, at ANY time!"

    Physics don't matter ... what matters, is what the car was designed to do! Track, versus street. THAT's what matters!

    Am i right? Everyone here (everyone but me, that is) would say NO "street car" could possibly best the GT3 on any track. No amount of power, no amount of technology in a "street car" could EVER beat the GT3 "track car" ... on any "track" we care to choose.

    The GT3 is built and "labeled" as a "track car", and that's all you need to know ... to understand that it beats ANY "street car" on ANY track.

    Right?
     
  12. noone1

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    Dude, just go ahead and call a racing team/shop and ask them. Call up GMG, they race R8 LMS cars and Porsche Cup cars. They build them out too. Tell them you want their opinion on racing a 2000 hp UGR car and ask them how much it will cost to make the rest of the car competitive with a GTE car. Ask them how likely it is for them to be able to make a UGR Huracan as fast as a GTE-Pro car.

    Go on, just call them up and ask. See what they say. If they laugh at you though, you have to be honest and come back here and tell us.
     
  13. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

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    A Porsche 911 GT3 is a street car. What are you talking about?
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    My advice, dont argue with a fool. especialy one whose experience comes from a magazine.
     
  15. werewolf

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    Simple. The GT3 is pretty close to what most people would call a "track car". There's not much distance, technically, between a GT3 and a full-fledged "track car".

    And yet, i can name a handful of "street cars" that will beat it ... on the track ... all day long.

    So YES, it is quite possible for a high-performance "track car" to be beaten ... on the track ... by an even higher-performance "street car". Is this confusing to you?

    Physics matter more than labels.
     
  16. werewolf

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    Tell you what ... you call them first. Ask them if it's possible for a street car .... ANY street car, with unlimited power ... to beat a "track car" that's restricted (by the rules it's designed for) to 700hp. That's the entire point of the discussion, after all.

    Can a "track car" ... that's been limited (by the rules it's designed for) to 700hp ... be beaten, on the track, by a "street car" with unlimited power? That's the ENTIRE point of the discussion.

    I say YES. You guys say NO. Make all the calls you want, and get back to us with an answer to THIS specific question.
     
  17. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I actualy go to the track, I don't need to make calls, I do it.
     
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  18. werewolf

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    Ahh ... name calling. That's what you've got, after ignoring my last comments and questions.

    Why am i not surprised.
     
  19. werewolf

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    Then answer the question, in bold, above. It's a simple "yes" or "no". So far you've said "no" .... a "track car" with limited power can NOT be beaten, on the track, by a "street car" with unlimited power.

    Is that STILL your answer?
     
  20. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Over 5 laps there is no way a street car can beat it.
    Nor is the GtMK2 limited in power.
    Power is not the answer on track, which if you had any real track experience you would know.
     
  21. werewolf

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    Well, thanks for the answer!

    A "track car" ... with power limited by the rules it was designed for ... can not possibly be beaten for more than 5 laps by ANY street car with ANY amount of power.

    That's your statement, correct?

    If it's a "track car" ... it will beat (over 5 laps) ANY car designed and marketed as a "street car", no matter how large the power difference between the two.

    Have i got it correct?
     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    You simply have no idea what youre talking about, beyond soem vague reference to limited physics, and BTW the physics of a race car you dont uderstand, .
    The Gt Mk2 is point of fact not power limited thats why it has 700hp not 463.
    Laptimes are not made by power, it is but one component and actualy not the most critical.
    Do yourself a favor, look at laptimes of various cars on track, not street cars in fanbooi magazines but actual track cars.
    Look at an actaul race track, like say VIR or Watkins glenn. You might be surprised to see whats quick and whats not.

    Go to the track in an actual car and learn. Bench racing is BS, but yeah it sells tuner cars.
     
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  23. werewolf

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    Should i interpret your insults (and other disparaging comments) as a "yes" or a "no" to your statement:

    There's no way any "street car", with unlimited power, can beat a "track car", with limited power, over 5 laps ... no matter how large the power difference between the two.

    Do you stand by this statement?
     
  24. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #2274 GuyIncognito, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
    OK this is a silly argument, but I'll interject some facts for the sake of further silliness.

    At Road Atlanta, a Porsche GT2 RS posted a production car record lap time of 1:24.88. This was with 700+ bhp in a road legal car on aggressive track-focused tires (Michelin Pilot Cup 2, IIRC)

    Also at Road Atlanta:

    a Porsche GT3 Cup car, with 200 *less* horsepower but racing slicks, less weight, and a proper racing suspension does a 1:23.42
    a Porsche 911 GT3 car with similar power to the Cup car but better suspension, tires and downforce does a 1:22.61 (this was the slowest qualifier in its class, by the amateur/bronze driver; pole for the class was a 1:19.6)
    the 911 RSR, with all its downforce and mid engined configuration, but still ~550bhp does a 1:17.21

    so that's 4 cars with a common chassis, one a road car with a ton of power the other 3 focused race cars but with less power, and the road car is the slowest-by 7.5 seconds compared to the GTE/GTLM car!
     
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  25. Sinovac

    Sinovac Karting

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    I get it now. You’re making the argument that if a frog had wings it wouldn’t bump its ass every time it jumped. Yeah, if your mythical car was exactly like this new GT, but with 2,000 HP, I agree it would be faster. Please tell us who makes this car and how much it costs.
     

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