New gated conversion kit - Modena Lucerna

I might not be as technically minded as some here, so please excuse me if this question has an obvious answer, especially since I don't track this car (although I have tracked other cars), just genuinely curious. How exactly does a braided line cause pedal fade? I normally relate pedal fade to hard braking and pads not being able to absorb heat anymore. How does a clutch pedal "fade" and how would aggressive driving change that? I don't press my clutch harder while driving aggressively. I've driven plenty of other cars with soft clutch lines that weren't braided and never noticed any clutch issues with those.


Also, I wasn't aware that NGSC was a spokesman. Was this announced? From the videos, it seemed that Dan was just trying to get in on the install action and chose the Dr S. kit as his weapon of choice.

 

The expansion is what I believe it is referring too. I can see 18" soft line will not expand like a 80" line. I can see if the factory did it one way on a part it should be that way on such a peice.

 

NG is using the Dr S kit now if you look at his install videos (watching now) and he offers the installation service now too with the kit, so he announced he is sort of affiliated.
I also would like to hear opinions on why a clutch braided line is needed.... The oem brake lines are NOT braided (not on my car ?).

I am almost decided to pull the trigger on a kit, but having a 13% clutch wear and no need to remove the gearbox, really looks like I have one solution.

 

But if you run F1 fluid in the clutch master, it is not connected to the brakes.... a failure of such line or expansion (still can't see how, why) will not affect braking system.
OK, if you go factory option, for safety they used a braided clutch line as you are connected to the braking system, and losing the clutch line will deplete your braking fluid too, soo...

 

Yeah, I'm not buying the safety argument either. I would argue that it's actually safer to have the system separate from the brakes.

 

Spongey pedal feel is not the same as fade though. Fade means the performance of the pedal will degrade, especially since he mentioned under aggressive driving. I haven't seen anybody complaining of a spongey pedal from any of the kits installed so far.

As a side note, just because Ferrari did it one way doesn't mean it's the best way. We've all likely dealt with parts on these cars that could have been designed better or even have a better designed aftermarket alternative now. I'll concede that someone may correlate a factory "feel" as being better if the newer or more robust part does not offer the same feedback to the driver. However, that doesn't necessarily make it worse.

 

Either way factory or not.. if I build say a hot rod that has brake fluid or hydraulic fluid that runs the length of the car I would still prefer a hard line over a soft line.

 

Well aware of factory parts that are terrible. But would chose a hard line any day over a soft line that runs over 80".

 

Great question;
Clutch fade.

It’s the same concept as to why you’d replace your standard brake lines with braided cables, now those are 12 inches not 8 feet long..

Once fluid gets to a higher temp from aggressive driving, or even tracking as you suggested; the rubber lines tend to swell, causing that squishy-ness feed back at your foot; it’s actually not just a combination of pads & rotors being heat soaked, but the route of that problem is because the fluid is hot…
and what happens with heat— expansion and contraction;
the fluid lines themselves swell. Which is why on the brakes it’s a common occurrence we upgrade to braided.

Now the braided line holds the form of the line to keep the positive flow rate the same— think of it like you’re heart and you have a clogged artery…
now that application works great as it’s 12 inches, once spread out over 8+ feet it’s the same concern. Does it work? Yes. Can’t argue that.

Does it work well, no. That’s science.
A steel hardline can’t swell, expand or contract. It’s fixed.

Now, once that fluid is hot and the lines are expanded it takes More pressure from your foot the push the clutch to get the same amount of throw/out bearing travel to have clutch engagement.

That’s a big IF you can even get that same travel from the clutch pedal itself.

It’s noticeable more for an advanced driver. That exact moment of engagement; when you’re rev matching correctly, and timing your shifting, or heel toeing, that changes shift points dramatically.

On that same note, factory brake fluid lines have a date imprinted on them. It’s a serviceable item that should be replaced every 5-6 years as rubber deteriorates, it too causes pedal degradation.

My comment in regards to Dan is that in his videos he’s praising the DR.S kit, his opinion holds as much water as a cup with a hole in it.
As he isn’t qualified to have an outspoken opinion.
He is click bate; in it for the views of his channel, to which he has open lawsuits against EAG- of course he’s going to say great things- what training or experience does he have to give such a valued response? 80k subscribers?


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

The safety concern is nothing to do with fade or soft lines.

Its that an auxiliary aftermarket fluid expansion tank, doesn’t have any features, to alert the driver, if a fluid loss is notated.

Where is the factory utilizes the brake fluid reservoir, because there’s already a fluid level sensor in place.

God for bid you have a leak …
On a factory car and on the Modena lucerna kit, hell even the EAG kit.

You will get a warning on the dash of low fluid.
It will alert you to an issue PRIOR. To total failure.

Without an alert system if you have a leak, you won’t know until it’s too late.

If you want to be aggressively driving your ferrari, in the canyons, or the track, and out of no where loose your clutch pedal, that’s on you.
I’m expressing why it’s important to have safety features in place.
That’s why the factory did it this way too.

Hell even with the factory F1 setup there’s a fluid warning light if fluids fall below a safe level.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't really see the clutch lines getting hot like the brakes so I don't equate the two scenarios right off the top of my head.

As for Dan, I don't know if Dr. S can help who installs and touts the kit. Certainly doesn't hurt to have more people talking about it but I agree that most people probably aren't taking Dan's advice as gospel in regards to technical data. I would hate to be in a position where some youtuber installed a product of mine and now people equate them as a spokesperson so I would hold off on stating that unless there's some official announcement.


Side note though, how difficult would it be to bend up a hard SS line during an install? Some tubing and a flare tool are easy to come by.

 

I'll comment on technical details later (thank you Josh for your comments about my kit, I appreciate it) but I was not aware that Dan NG Supercar is my spoke person either . He bought a kit, made videos and made some comments in which he promoted his conversion services business. Josh seems to be doing exactly the same with a kit from another vendor.

And the only difference I can see looking objectively is that only Dan's thread was removed by administrators for the self promotion without paying for it, and I understand administrators reasoning in Dan's case.

But also I don't see a problem with this current thread continuing (in fairness to Dan it should also be removed) as I believe in transparency and open discussion, having full confidence in my kit's advantages and having data to support it.

 

I'm sticking with my F1 but using my history around the industry for the past 20+ years . I like this kit seems like a nice way to go. Some one else posted this about this kit and I gave my feedback. Don't see anything wrong with that. Like I said and will stand on my comment. I would prefer a hardline over a soft line any day.

 

I’m all for transparency and a healthy discussion.

As you saw in my response to you last night. I’m not here to bash on you or your product.
I’m not advertising my work, or my business.
Aside from sharing a IG page of videos which the people clearly want to see!
Even there it’s not even my shop’s page, it’s not my personal page, it’s a documentary of this particular car.

We’re simply comparing and contrasting products.

As a factory trained master ferrari tech
I have raised valid concerns, which ultimately made my decision sway one sided. Your very welcome to respond to them; I encourage it.

What’s great about a capitalistic society, is that the consumer can make their own choices, with the information available.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

I don't mean to come off as rude so please don't take this as questioning your authenticity. I'm honestly confused...

You said to follow your progress of the conversion on your instagram page earlier in this thread and that you'll be doing an F430 soon. However, you just said that it is not your shops page or your personal page. Is this a friend's shop? Are you helping with this install or do you not have involvement with the install and just commenting?

I'm only asking because you're relatively new and your only involvement so far in the forum has been to talk about this kit. This thread was also only posted by someone else with only one post in this group. No introduction, no background from either member. It's not beyond me to see how someone can join just for one topic and really only want to contribute to the one thing but we do see a fair bit of profiles that just appear to push a new product and then disappear.

Again, I apologize if I'm off base here, but I think it's a fair question considering past experiences so please bear with me.

 

I don't want to crash you party, and this is my own personal opinion... but I am not buying your theory, sorry.

I have tracked extensively most cars that I owned and NEVER replaced brake lines with braided lines, although most hard core people do. I never had an issue in 15 years... Only issue I had ever on the track was the oil seal in the pump failing on my F430 causing oil loss. Brakes have been brilliant even when abused, as long you do your due diligence and change fluid/bleed between track days, and use proper pads....
There is bugger all pressure in the clutch line when you push the clutch compared to the brakes. I understand the line is much longer, so what.

One more advantage of NOT deleting your e-diff is that your pressure sensor on the diff will alert you if pressure drops in the circuit, preventing a total failure of the clutch. It will (at minimum) give you the slow down e-diff message failure (like it happened on mine when the solenoid was leaking).

 

Fair question, no need to apologize!
New?
I joined FerrariChat in 2018,
I don’t post, I read and browse and purchase parts.
As technician, and shop owner it’s nice to see and hear what owners experience and enjoy.
No harm in not posting.

I wasn’t expecting this thread to turn out the way it did, I didn’t even start it!

I just saw someone with questions about the kit I’m using and since I’m documenting it on the IG page which has over 450k views; I figured I’d share it if the OP had an questions, they’ll Probably be answered in my videos.

I am a Factory trained Pagani and Ferrari master tech, whom owns my own shop.
I’m doing this conversion for a client of mine.
And since there are currently no in-depth videos from anyone with any credentials, other than YouTube certifications, I decided to document it.

I created a new Ig page solely for it. I’ve never once asked people to send me their business.

Just talking about my experience with this kit and why I think it’s the bee’s knee’s.

Since questions are being asked, I answer; I stand by my professional opinions.
I hope that answered your questions.

If Rob the founder of Ferrarichat wants me to make an introduction post, by all means, I can and will.
In previous positions in my career I was more active on FerrariChat with other accounts, Rob knows that.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

It’s okay, You don’t need to “buy” my theory,
It’s not a theory,
It’s based off facts,
Expansion and contraction and flow rates.

The automotive industry for decades has been using hard-lines. Do you, think every manufacturer and car builder is wrong?
Do you think Mario Andretti’s Indy cars or f1 cars run soft line front to back?


You said yourself, you’re not a hardcore driver… so the problems we are speaking of probably wouldn’t effect you.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

Can't help myself here. But what about the actuator hydraulics lines. They are not hard lines. And I think the oem 6speed line going from the master cylinder to the brake reservoir is a rubber hose? Can someone confirm as it's been awhile

 

They are less then 24"

 

Could it be possible that some braided lines could be rated higher than a steel line?

 

I'm sure certain lines could.. but I believe they run those because you would never want a fixed line there due to engine movement or flex.

 

I don't think the argument is that braided lines aren't up to the task. They should be for the pressures involved. The argument is that there would be enough flex in them versus a hard line to cause some type of pedal feel degradation over a hard line.

Still would like an answer to a previous question if anybody knows. How difficult would it be to just fab up a hard line for this application? Seems like an easy DIY if someone was inclined and were not happy with braided lines.

 

just fyi.... all cars I have or owned have a rubber hose running from master to brake reservoir. Including my M3, GT350R, etc. But there is no pressure in that line, it's purely a feed line for the fluid.

 

I feel like this is a bit of a stretch. Who routinely sticks their head inside the pedal box looking upward from the floorboard, or removes half the center console to see if a logo is cast into a part? It seems a little more likely to notice that one, or more, of the pedals are a completely different material/color than the factory pedal(s) right next to them, no?

Also stating that Dan/NGS is the spokesman for Dr S would be akin to saying you’re now the new face of Modena Lucerna because you praised the kit on here as an installer (less the YouTube credentials ).

This is not an attack. I followed your page on IG as I think you have good insight you can share will all of us less skilled wannabe weekend techs on here, myself included.