New Ignition???? 400i

Wayne, with a AEC104 setup the electronic ignition directly drives the tach, so you won't see a coil defect based on the tach's output.

Good luck,
Adrian

 

Having received the MSD 6AL-2 system, I have passed it to my garage; unfortunately despite, in theory, installing the unit as per the wiring diagram A(Points trigger), the car does not start up. Though the led flashes up once, but apart from that nothing else happen.

I think it may be my fault because I have passed him the wiring diagram as per Diag A. Now I have realized that there is another diagram B (Magnetic trigger).

So the question is which on should I follow, A or B? I fear I could damage the unit if I keep fiddling around again.
If the answer is A, then I have another question. The white wire to Distributor points, shouldn’t it be the blue/white? Apparently it is what the info enclosed with the MSD says.
Thanks for your help.
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Here is my experience hooking up the MSD box:
called MSD..problem solved..30 seconds..no third party guess-work..over.

 

Alberto,

for a 400i with VR pickups you need diagram B (magnetic trigger). The blue/white wire is only required for hall effect pickups, the white wire is for point based setups.

Best,
Adrian

 

I would like to thanks all of you for your help and advices. The car runs very well. Even better than before. I have `posted a couple of pictures on the "picturs from our cars" threads. Regards

 

Hi Adrian,

We have replaced the old Marelli system on our 84 400i following your recommendations. Replacing it with the MSD 6AL-2 Multiple Spark (6421) and MSD Blaster 2 Coil. Car is running smoothly but with a back fire through the exhaust. Retarding and advancing the timing helps but does not get rid of it. Still have a hard backfire have you run into any problems like this? I know it's been quit a while since you've made the post.

Regards,
Nico

 

A stronger spark may show up other issues.
Have you checked the distributor cap and rotor for for dirt, cracks or signs spark tracking across?
Have the ignition leads been tested?

I have worked on a 512BB many years ago that had a similar problem and it was being driven in a humid location and kept getting moisture in the distributor causing the spark to track to the wrong spot. I discovered a worn seal between the distributor and the camshaft which allowed the crankcase ventilation to draw air/moisture through the distributor. I replaced this seal and the problem was solved.

 

Hi Nico,

how often does it backfire, randomly, only on acceleration? Cleaning out the inside of the distributor cap, checking the outside of the spark wires for defects as well as checking the battery supply wiring for the MSD 6A and ground connections would be the first things i would do.

Good luck,
Adrian

 

Sounds like you are sending un-burnt fuel to the exhausts, which sounds curious given that the system is duplicating the sparks (at low RPM). If you have the issue above 2000rpm, this would however makes more sense. If I were in your shoes, I would revert back to the stock setup. Assuming you want to keep the MSD here are a few things that come to mind :

1) Is the MSD connected "by the book" with its dedicated power-supply harness (i.e not from the yellow harness cable that comes from the stalk). MSD do also recommend the use of a large capacitor.
2) Are the plugs type and gaps compliant with the manual guidelines? The equivalent of the discontinued champion plugs are NGK BP8ES. I know some of us are using significantly hotter plugs such as NGK-BP6ES. This being said whether hot or cold, out of the box these plugs do have a 0.8mm gap which is not what the Ferrari manual does recommend (you should "regap"). This higher gap increases the stress on the ignition, which combined with your new coil might be too much for the HT leads and distributor?
3) Have you tried the MSD with the stock coil? I know it is a lot to ask given how valuable these original coils are, but a weaker coil could reduce the load on the other components.

 

2) Regapping does not apply to CDI based ignitions, different principiple. In inductive ignitions this changes the balance between spark duration and spark ignition voltage but with a CDI ignition such as the Dinoplex and the MSD, the output voltage is defined by the winding ratio in the coil (transformer).
3) The stock coil BAE202B has a different wiring with separate ground and should not be used with the MSD CDI. It has a similar winding ratio as the Blaster 2 so the output voltage would be the same.

 

That's correct, assuming the whole system is "consistent". My concern is related to the rest of the stock setup. The higher the gap, the more the spark will try to find an alternate path (through a weak component).

These modern ignitions do seem to produce such a high output, that the sparks finds other routes to reach the ground: judging by the photos that were posted in this board, the damages in the distributor cap were speaking volumes regarding the sort of output these new ignitions are imposing on the system. From memory the spark in the distributor can perforate the distributor insulation and reach the lower bank of cylinder.

I know this defeats the purpose of the upgrade, but for now given that his system does not work I would play it safe and gap the plugs "by the book" (i.e small gaps and small output).

 

The AEC 104 B-660 stock ignition has the same specs and output voltage as the MSD 6AL-2. In fact the 6AL-2 CDI is quite similar to the B-660, except for the multiple spark feature at low revs which the MSD has, and the different primary coil wiring. Keep in mind that the AEC104B was designed and developed for F1 racing cars.

Distributor caps, spark wires and plugs should be considered being consumables and replaced regulary, but with the high prices for new distributor caps and the sometimes sub par quality of modern replacements this is not so easy. So you often find 40 year old distributor caps which at some point start to disintegrate, both with CDI as well as with inductive ignition setups.

 

Got to agree on that: just bought an expensive new distributor cap that does not even properly fit within the stock metal shroud (had to trim some tabs). This being said this distributor is just like a jaguar distributor with the additional input tapped. If price is an issue one can use this €52 jaguar cap as a substitute (https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/cap-rotor-plug-wires-alternatives.552123/#post-145376614).

So no point in using a worn out distributor caps, but even a new item has its weakness, and I would not try to max-out the system with bigger sparks. See the thread I was mentioning : https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/rotor-cap.570948/#post-145856065

​

 

Gentlemen thankyou for the responses. After running everything over again we followed MSD's recommended sparkplug gaps and she runs like a dream. Our distributor still looks good for a couple of years, It's all clean and meat left on the contacts. Will definitely be changing ignition cables their no longer looking so good. Thanks Adrian and everyone for all the help in making this conversion a piece of cake. Another 400i saved from just being parked and not enjoyed.
Cheers Gents.

 

I find these posts interesting and educational, as I've always had carby cars, it's good learning. I don't know much about the Dinoplex boxes for 400's, are they out there to buy? I'm sure they're much more expensive than the MSD, but what value do you put on originality? I know there's really nice reproduction boxes available for the 246, that look totally original with modern electrics inside. Is anyone rebuilding or doing repro 400 modules with modern internals that plug in and go like original without having to go down the path of new power supply setups for MSD? Just curious. Cheers

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No Dinoplex for 400's that work are out there. They failed miserably and often on our cars.

 

Good day Tim,

I and a number of other have done "conversions" of the Dinoplex's for Boxers that removed the old guts and replaced them with modern internals. In my case I was tasked to include/recreate the original tell tale "whine" of the originals, as some event judges were specially listening for this whine. I posted a bit of what I did in the following a Boxer thread:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/1979-512bb-dinoplex-upgrade-plug-and-play.631311/#post-147550164

I will be doing something similar to that used in my 365 (and will probably dedicate a thread to it), as the original units are and were known to have reliability issues. Also, the new systems have a number of very desirable features (e.multi-spark at low revs, more energy, etc) that our cars would benefit from. Ultimately, one can have the best of both Worlds in that you can maintain the original look, but have better and more reliable modern electronics.

Cheers,

Sam

 

I've added two large capacitors and ferrite so as to protect my module. This being said my best reliability upgrade for the dinoplex, is a big sticker on the battery that reads "NO JUMP START".

 

Good day Raemin,

There are a number of things that can be done or added to assist with the reliability of the original Dinolexs, but at the end these are just band-aids to a design that had flaws and adding any components in front of the original Dinolex deviates from the original look.. Secondly, some components within the Dinoplex will have degraded with age and so there is a point where any preventative electrical measures will simply not help if one or more of these components fail. When this happens your car will be down for some time until you find a replacement or decide upon an upgrade. Going with an upgrade now will minimize these issues immensely plus provide a number of added benefits that will enable our cars to operate better. Even if the upgrade's internals fail, it would be far easier, cheaper, and faster to replace the internals than it will be to try and find a replacement original unit. In the upgrades I have done I have maintained the original modern internal connectors and so if one needed to replace the internals it would simply be the removal of 4 screws, 4 threaded stand-offs, and unplugging and replugging in the replacement... Literally 5-10 minutes of time once the unit is removed from the car. My point is that there are some very nice options out there that are a total win-win in my view.
Cheers,
Sam

 

Thanks Sam, I like what you did for your Boxer, great looking job for sure, even better when it makes your car run more reliably too. When you say that you'll do something similar to your 365, given they don't have the Dinoplex box, can I assume you're planning on another more hidden spark boosting box somewhere? I've given very basic thought to the idea on my GT, but it's low priority at the moment, given all the other parts of the Resto I'm thinking about!

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The MSD does require a beefy power supply and a capacitor is highly recommended.

I've already implemented these in my car, also rerouted all the harness through the relay panel, even added one spare wire in the fender, "just in case" for the MSD hot wire.

Replacing the dinoplex will basically be a mater of adjusting the connection on the coil, crimping a fastin connector on the new module and eventually cut a proper aluminium plate that would replicate the dinoplex footprint. So "I am ready", but I would reluctantly remove this stock module.

Also the MSD does not offer fancy features. If we could have the 412 ignition curve (+3°), vacuum management, anti knock, I would really look at it differently.

All in all putting an MSD is like using Superformance rims: it's cheap it does the job. Does not make the car any better or more valuable.

For now I keep the buzzing noise and the F1 technology.

 

Good day Tim,

Thanks for your kudos on my efforts. I am very pleased with the results, but it took a fair amount of thinking and design effort to get everything to fit. Adding to the effort was that the original 6-pin connector could not be salvaged and so I ended up designing a replacement connector that looks OEM. The new modern ignition systems are so much better than original setup. That being said, in their day the original Dinoplex's were pretty impressive. However, 40 years have past and so a lot of improvements have been made along with addressing design issues that were initially missed.

For my 365 the motivation will be to improve things including reliability, reduced emissions, and reduced maintenance while at the same time ensuring that everything looks stock. Since the 365 does not have an ignition module I will have to plan on how best to embed a unit so that it does not stand out and/or look inappropriate. I will be modernizing the distributors, as the original setup can be improved dramatically with some well placed electronics. Again the goal is for everything to look stock.

Like yourself, there are a multitude of other things to do and/or are the priority and so it will be a while before I get to this... or the other tasks I started last Summer... argh... if only there were 36 hours in a day I could get things done.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Found this on my trawl through a friend's website. Might be of use to someone looking for an original unit https://www.exoticautospares.com/inventory/ferrari-cdi-ignition-512bb-400-nos/

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