New ignition system?

Discussion in '206/246' started by TonyL, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
    1,878
    Suffolk England
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Well after a several successful (although its rather fond of trashing coils) years of running the black stallion system, it seems to have developed a fault and without access to a old windows program I cannot see what is going on (thanks Microsoft) I am no geek on computers and don't understand compatibility modes either!!

    Anybody have any suggestions on a replacement system. I have read some really old posts about this and am dithering which is the best option inc Adrians optical setup, I am not to keen about going back to the old centrifugal weights unless I can get them properly set up on a old Sun machine.

    Anybody know who can do this in the UK?

    All suggestions would be welcome :)
     
  2. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 23, 2004
    1,729
    Laguna Beach, Ca
    Full Name:
    Freeman Thomas

    Tony,

    No way am I in your league but I wanted to share my up to date experience with the Winterburn CD box http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/206-246/276251-rebuilding-dinoplex-aec103a-10.html

    I installed it with the correct NOS Marelli points distributor when I still was using the DCNF's. Always instant starts hot or cold. Great performance throughout the rev range. I had researched replacing the troublesome optical trigger Crane Cams system with Adrian's system (which I still have packed away ready to install already built by Adrian in a Dinoplex box) when my friend Tom Shaughnessy convinced me to go back to the stock points system. His advice was it was easier to problem solve on the road and you can always unplug and go to coil/points in an emergency. I only ever had one issue with the points ignition and it was a fluke that was quickly remedied.

    If I went to a Jenvey style throttle body FI I would definitively go to a programable Motec system like Kevin O'Rourke's at Mototechnique. Now with my Stratos induction coupled with the Winterburn CD box and points I feel it's a simple to install, great performing period-correct alternative combination. Fred Winterburn will build his CD ignition into an empty Dinoplex if you supply it. BTW, if anyone is interested in my never used Adrian system, let me know. I'm sure it's amazing. I'm just happy with what I have.

    Best,
    Freeman
     
  3. VicJano

    VicJano Karting

    Dec 17, 2011
    221
    Kingston upon Thames
    Full Name:
    Chris O'Connor
    Hi Freeman,
    Do you know if, with the O'Rouke Jenvey/Motec system, is it Motec who set up the curves/parameters for a Dino with Jenvey injection bodies or does it require trial and error for one's specific car?
    Thanks. Chris
     
  4. VicJano

    VicJano Karting

    Dec 17, 2011
    221
    Kingston upon Thames
    Full Name:
    Chris O'Connor
    Tony, I was recently speaking to Barkways who said they put in new Petronix units that can be hidden in the distributor. I'm not sure if these are programmable or is of any help to you? Chris
     
  5. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 23, 2004
    1,729
    Laguna Beach, Ca
    Full Name:
    Freeman Thomas
    Chris,

    Kevin O'Rourke was very helpful and complete with information on Mototechnique doing this conversion. Hopefully he'll chime in. Great part it looks completely stock with a stock (but modified floor) air box. He offered to me everything "ready to bolt on" and that included the Motec already dialed in. I believe it also had crank fire ignition.

    Freeman
     
  6. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
    1,878
    Suffolk England
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Thanks for the responses so far, Freeman - I am a complete fan of your daring conversion...it takes some nuts to do that :)

    Chris - I looked at these and was really worried about heat & electronics in the same housing.

    I am leaning towards the mechanical weight system once again which is damn annoying as I spent months perfecting a carbon copy of the MM distributor with internal hall sensor, only moving part was the shaft and a rotor. It worked a treat until the BSM ignition board went AWOL :-(

    I have a friend who is working on putting W98 on my old laptop and trying to see if we can interrogate the module before its ditched completely.

    It would be interesting to see what the advance curves are for the standard set up, ie points and weights - has anybody mapped these with modern fuels in mind.

    Thanks
    tony
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. Ken Ivey

    Ken Ivey Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 6, 2013
    72
    Portland, OR, USA
    Full Name:
    Ken Ivey
    Tony, I have a Luminition trigger in my distributor and was running a Luminition electronic ignition in the Dinoplex box. It worked quite well, but didn't play nice with my tachometer.

    I saw Rob's thread where he's using the Luminition trigger and MSD AL6 Programmable ignition. I bought the MSD and it works wonderfully + my tachometer loves it. I'm still using the advance in the distributor for now and I'm working on fitting it to the Dinoplex box. Thanks Rob :)
     
  9. Stefan Elshout

    Stefan Elshout Karting

    Dec 1, 2011
    108
    Holland
    Tony, if you have a hall sensor and a rigid shaft without mechanical advance in your distributor it sounds like a perfect setup for hooking up a programmable MSD6AL in your car.
    Nuvolari over here just did such a conversion (with a luminition optical sensor instead of a hall sensor) but a hall sensor is as easy to hook up to the MSD if not easier.
     
  10. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    1,348
    Uk
    There is an outfit in Holland that do an electronic system for the dino, also a lot of other dino related items
     
  11. VicJano

    VicJano Karting

    Dec 17, 2011
    221
    Kingston upon Thames
    Full Name:
    Chris O'Connor
    Mike32, Any idea what there are called?
     
  12. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    1,348
    Uk
    I passed the details on to someone, i will see if i can find out. Not being rich enough to buy one it was not much use to me
     
  13. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    1,348
    Uk
    Try Home: Startseite

    I put a google search in and this came up. I think it is the right site as lots dino ignitions
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
    1,878
    Suffolk England
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Thanks everybody, I have found a good racing dept in the UK who has a king Machine and can set up the advance curves.

    Tony
     
  16. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    1,348
    Uk
    The aftermarket electronic kits seem to be an advance on the oem gear, are they worth looking at ?
     
  17. Fred Winterburn

    Jan 27, 2015
    45
    Folks,
    I have had numerous enquiries over the past 2 1/2 years regarding retrofitting the AEC 103 with a version of my ignition system, which in turn is based on my late father's (Lloyd Winterburn) CD ignition. Despite the numerous enquiries, I have only had one taker to date and that was two years ago.
    I have the parts to retrofit one more system, and it has already been offered to a Dino owner. I will no longer offer retrofits and will update my website in the next few weeks to reflect that decision.
    Freeman, I appreciate your endorsement of the system, but I've gotten so busy with my other work and hobbies that I'm going to focus on the standard production model only. Fred




     
  18. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 23, 2004
    1,729
    Laguna Beach, Ca
    Full Name:
    Freeman Thomas
    Fred,

    Thanks for chiming in! Can I put dibs on your last assembly if the other guy backs out? Tell me what I need to do!!

    Freeman
     
  19. Fred Winterburn

    Jan 27, 2015
    45
    Freeman,
    One of the reasons I''m backing out of the offer is that I have to be responsible for the customer's private property and the issues of crossing borders with governments wanting to levy duties on anything that crosses with value associated with it. Our government has historically charged first and hoped that Canadians do not go after a refund due to the hassle. And it is a real hassle to get that sort of mis-payment back. Couriers are terrible and charge brokerage fees on everything. I have to charge the customer for this if the parts aren't sent such that border fees aren't levied. Free trade with the USA has always been a myth for small business. It's no different than any other country as far as imports go. And then I have to send the unit back to the customer with the appropriate language so that the receiving country doesn't rip off the customer with border fees for something they already own (but now works).
    The way around all of this nonsense would be to offer a retrofit kit, but that creates problems of its own and I'm not willing to engage in that from a quality control perspective.
    Theoretically the profit margin on retrofits is higher than producing my own units, but with very few retrofits (one to date), I would need to relearn the process every time. I can build the production units pretty much blindfolded now. Fred
     
  20. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
    1,878
    Suffolk England
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Sounds a complete nightmare, I fear we may be heading down the same path leaving the European Union, but that is just another layer of bureaucracy.

    I am considering lots of options but I have mixed feelings ever since I installed the Black Stallion set up several years ago and never really liked the way the coils got excessively hot despite limiting the settings on the control board, 4 coils later and the current Bosch unit I have seems to have outlasted all the others. It was never really developed properly and black stallion backed out when they knew just how much more development work was needed. I spent many many hours trying to overcome the problems. Personally I am at the stage where I want something reliable and simple to fix, I don't have time with rolling roads anymore and fine tuning the car to enter a 24hr le mans endurance race if needed. I want it to start when I get in and go. The old mechanical weights and points could be the answer, it survived 30+ years with it so I may revert back to the old way!!

    I suspected the BSM module was misbehaving some time ago and purchased another type of programmable ignition system sold as bolt on and forget.........I got no backup from the company and just loads of excuses about EMI. That now sits in the bin although I am pleased with the MM dizzy I redesigned with hall sensor trigger

    I am sure your design is great and freeman is very vocal about how good it is but I don't want to be saddled with another disappointment, and I mean no offence by that.

    Kind Regards

    Tony
     
  21. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 23, 2004
    1,729
    Laguna Beach, Ca
    Full Name:
    Freeman Thomas
    #19 4CamGT, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
    Tony,

    Fred's standard unit is a direct plug in replacement for the Dinoplex. No mods to the wiring loom. Basically the Dinoplex that should always have been. Only for a points system. Doesn't get much simpler than that. Going back to the standard points distributor makes it reliable and simple to set up and also to problem solve on the road. My coil doesn't get hot. Some reading on the unit and Fred's dad, Lloyd who was a pioneer in CD ignition: http://www.capacitordischargeignition.com

    Freeman
     
  22. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    297
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I can't believe I'm the only retrofit customer. Not to sound like too much of a fanboy, but Fred's ignition has really improved the car's behavior. I'm not a fan of retrofitting "modern" ignitions into our cars, mostly due to the concerns Tony enumerates above. Fred's ignition is what the Dino should have had in the first place. Hey Fred - maybe make kits that people can retrofit themselves so you don't need to hassle with logistics?
     
  23. TonyL

    TonyL Formula 3

    Sep 27, 2007
    1,878
    Suffolk England
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Sadly it looks like am have missed the boat on that one, I have read the article and it is possibly just what I am looking for, I did have the Super 4 ignition before the BSM. How does this compare -over to you Fred to explain the complexities!!

    Tony
     
  24. VicJano

    VicJano Karting

    Dec 17, 2011
    221
    Kingston upon Thames
    Full Name:
    Chris O'Connor
    Mike32, Thanks.
     
  25. Fred Winterburn

    Jan 27, 2015
    45
    Tony,
    The difference is that this is a real CD ignition like the original Marelli AEC 103, although very different in design. Most of the retrofits seem to be inductive type ignitions which are easier to make but don't have the inherent advantages of CDI. Even a powerful CDI can't make a coil hot unless there is a design flaw.
    The retrofit I did for Mark is an exact plug and play for the original except that it has voltage control and a much longer duration spark than the AEC 103. It's a completely different design with the only thing in common with the original being that it is a CDI. It should be much more reliable too, and Mark can repair his if it ever needs doing because it's not potted. The power supply transistors are even more robust than the ones I use in the normal production model and that has components that far exceed the requirements. It's also slightly more powerful, but that was a side effect of the conversion of the original circuit, not a design goal.
    About 8 months ago, I had a Ferrari dealer destroy the switch inside a standard production model when it was hooked up to the rare 3 terminal coil used for the older AEC 101 CDI. The circuit on my model is different, and that caused a direct short to ground through the switch from the 12V applied to the coil. It burned out one set of contacts in the switch and burnt the insulation off an internal wire. That dealer found the Achilles heel of the unit if it is hooked up incorrectly to begin with. Amazingly the engine ran for a full minute with most of the CD energy bypassing the coil through the battery before smoke started coming out of the CDI. That rare coil must have gotten exceedingly hot with only about 0.4 ohms (from what I've read), so the CD switch contacts going open circuit from burning saved the coil which was worth more than the CDI! A fuse on the supply side of the CDI would not have prevented this, so I have updated the instructions with specific warnings. I will no longer sell to a dealer, unless it is going on the dealer's personal car. Dialogue with the customer who is installing the unit is important. Once hooked up correctly very little can go wrong. On the Dino, or any other car for that matter, I recommend using a coil with a minimum of 3 ohms primary resistance (or 3 ohms with a ballast resistor and the coil resistance) to ensure that the switch on the CDI is protected, as well as the points and coil from over-current if the switch on the CD box is selected to 'STD'. Once connected correctly, not much else can go wrong as the standard production unit is protected from reverse polarity and every other known CDI failure mode that I know of.




     
  26. Fred Winterburn

    Jan 27, 2015
    45
    Mark, Thanks for being the Guinea pig on the retrofit. There are three reasons I won't offer a kit. The first being that very few people seem to know how to solder anymore. In the 50s and 60s it was a common skill for many young men and some women, but not now even with an ageing population being able to afford a Dino and possibly from the era that knew how to solder. Secondly, the cases are potted, and this reduces the likelyhood for cores that could be used and every kit would be expensive due to the small numbers. Also, reproduction cores are different inside and that would necessitate a different kit. If it's going to be expensive, I would rather have control of the quality. The third reason is that I don't want to reduce this circuit to a kit form that anyone can copy. Oddly, since early 2014 I have had about 15 fishing emails from some folks that want to steal intellectual property without actually buying a unit to reverse engineer. Too cheap, or no understanding of basic electronics. Not that there is anything inside that is earth shatteringly new, but by the same token, I'm not going to give away any of the improvements I made to my father's original design or my component choices. If someone wants to see what's inside, they can buy a unit. One email was definitely from a patent thief in New Jersey with a history of stealing ideas and then taking the other company to court for using 'his' idea. Lots of theft and 'stranger than fiction' stories back in the sixties and seventies with regard to this design, but there are still sharks swimming today. Fred
     
  27. alhbln

    alhbln Formula 3
    Consultant Owner

    Mar 4, 2008
    1,613
    Berlin, Germany
    Full Name:
    Adrian
    That would be the logical next step, as finding a workshop wo can properly set up and recurve a S127 got a bit difficult nowadays.
     

Share This Page